[open-government] UK Government transparency update (and democracy?)

David Eaves david at eaves.ca
Fri Dec 10 01:22:48 UTC 2010


Hi Paola, I'm also not certain that the lack of the term democracy 
coming up is reflective of either a disinterest in democracy or even as 
you allude, indifference or hostility.

I actually think most people in the open government movement see open 
data and open government as reinforcing democracy... indeed, for many I 
think democracy is a presumed precondition for greater transparency. 
Moreover, the fact that TBL and others talk so much about the need for 
data journalists is a recognition that the data being liberated in of 
itself is not enough, we need a way to ensure that it gets into the 
regular discourse and empowers citizens of all stripes.

I'd love to see the clips/references you refer to as I really didn't get 
the same vibe out of OGDcamp at all - quite the opposite, really felt 
like most of the people in the room see themselves as advocates of 
democratic values.

cheers,
dave eaves

On 10-12-09 12:17 PM, Luigi Selmi wrote:
> Hi Paola,
> I was at the OGDCamp in London but don't think to be the one that gave 
> you a card since I do not have cards. It is true that the term 
> 'democracy' doesn't come up very often when talking about 
> transparency. Maybe it is because there are a lot of people that comes 
> from governments and institutions that are more interested in the 
> functioning of the current practices and do not pay attention to what 
> happen outside, to all the events that send us signs of a crisis of 
> the representative democracy. I live in Italy and we have been 
> experimenting for more than 16 years all the issues about that. The 
> last of these days is the of deputies' votes shopping to support the 
> current government. We are at the far edge of the representative 
> democracy crisis but also in the US and other western countries there 
> are a lot of issues that come up every time and cannot be solved 
> within the current model of democracy. We need transparency because we 
> need the knowledge to intervene every day not just to chose someone to 
> go in the parliament.
>
> Best Regards
>
>
> Luigi Selmi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 17:51:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and 
> democracy?)
> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
> To: selmi_luigi at hotmail.com
> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>
> Luigi
>
> I obviously agree with you, and became terrified when I found out that 
> democracy, according to some working in the OGDCamp, is just an optional
>
> (will send you a copy of the relevant snippets of email exchanges 
> separately, if you are interested)
>
> What some of us defend and uphold by default  - democratic principles 
> and civil liberties as the foundation for good governance, including 
> self-governance - does not  always seem to be reflected in the 
> philosophy of current open government initiatives - quite the 
> contrary, to my worry.
>
> Democracy should never be taken for granted, but unfortunately  self 
> organisation is sometimes used as an excuse to justify the chaos where 
>  great inequalities, deliberate omissions and lack of 
> democratic processes become hidden and take place without anyone 
> noticing.
>
> Until we no longer can tell who is running the show, using what rules 
> of the game.
>
> Perhaps at the next Camp we should propose this topic for discussion, 
>  and find a way to demand that the agenda is managed transparently and 
> fairly.
>
> I will analyse the ODGCamp corpus when its published to see if we find 
> any instances of the word democracy that I may have missed on the day
>
> PDM
>
> (are you the Luigi who gave me his card? i am still going thru my 
> notes, will catch up soon)
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Luigi Selmi <selmi_luigi at hotmail.com 
> <mailto:selmi_luigi at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     If 'transparency of information' is not related to democracy I
>     wonder why bother about it ? Open data and open government are
>     steps towards a new kind of democracy, more partecipatory,
>     something that goes beyond the representative democracy without
>     falling into populism and plebiscitaniarism.
>
>
>     Luigi
>
>
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:09:17 +0000
>     From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com <mailto:paola.dimaio at gmail.com>
>     To: javier at openrightsgroup.org <mailto:javier at openrightsgroup.org>
>     CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>     <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
>     Subject: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and
>     democracy?)
>
>
>     Javier
>
>     thanks for the update
>
>     one the words that I have not seen come up much at the OGCAMP
>     is 'democracy', in fact some people cringed when I dared mention it
>
>     Some 'activists' seem to take the view that 'democratic process'
>     is not that much related
>     to 'trasparency of information'
>
>     Let us know when you hear of something in that respect
>
>     cheers
>
>     PDM
>
>
>
>     2010/12/7 Javier Ruiz Diaz <javier at openrightsgroup.org
>     <mailto:javier at openrightsgroup.org>>
>
>         Dear all
>
>         It seems they were listening during the OGD camp.
>
>         http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-cabinet-office/plans-performance/transparency-privacy-data.aspx
>
>         Tentatively good news, lets see the details in the next few days.
>
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>
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