[@OKau] How can we fund important Open Source projects?

Mon Nov 30 04:31:49 UTC 2015

Hi Rosie,

I reckon there's revenue streams in your work on charities data, and NZ is
interested in insights from its (open data on) charities as well (see the
Twitter conversation I added you to).

Cheers,

Craig

_________________________________________________

Craig Thomler

http://egovau.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/CraigThomler
http://au.linkedin.com/in/craigthomler
http://www.slideshare.net/CraigThomler
<http://www.slideshare.net/CraigThomler%20>

*Mobile:* 0411 780 194 (*International:* +61 411 780 194)
*Phone:* 02 6161 4508 (*International: *+61 2 6161 4508)
*Skype:* craig.thomler

On 30 November 2015 at 15:01, Rosie Williams <BudgetAus at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Craig,
>
>
> Just attended the DataStart Google Hangout. The point of the DataStart
> exercise is to prove to the investment community that open data makes
> highly scalable businesses to return high profits to the investors. I guess
> everyone is looking for the next Facebook. I'll have a go at the
> application. Given how much I know about government data compared with most
> other people I think they should include me for that if nothing else. I
> haven't really thought about scaling something globally though and it's not
> good timing for me to be thinking outside of what I've been doing right
> now. I'll just have to see.
>
>
> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
> ________________________________________
>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au> - Open Data Reporter | OpenAus
> <https://openaus.net.au> - Founder and Developer
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* okfn-au <okfn-au-bounces at lists.okfn.org> on behalf of Craig
> Thomler <craig.thomler at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, 29 November 2015 11:51 AM
>
> *To:* Open Knowledge discussion list for Australia.
> *Subject:* Re: [@OKau] How can we fund important Open Source projects?
>
> Hi Rosie,
>
> Don't miss that hangout - they are offering precisely what you need.
>
> You can get all the info from their website anyway - and call/email them
> with questions.
>
> Don't wait for them. Get your application started st the site (
> http://datastart.com.au/)
>
> It's only open til the 11th Dec and they'll shortlist by the 18th with a
> five day workshop for the 20 shortlisted in January.
>
> The process is fast, it's not on government timelines.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Craig
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> Craig Thomler
>
> http://egovau.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/CraigThomler
> http://au.linkedin.com/in/craigthomler
> http://www.slideshare.net/CraigThomler
> <http://www.slideshare.net/CraigThomler%20>
>
> *Mobile:* 0411 780 194 (*International:* +61 411 780 194)
> *Phone:* 02 6161 4508 (*International: *+61 2 6161 4508)
> *Skype:* craig.thomler
>
> On 26 November 2015 at 08:51, Rosie Williams <BudgetAus at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Craig,
>>
>> I missed the initial info session but I have tickets to the online
>> hangout coming up. Did you go to the Canberra event? Thanks for blogging
>> about the charities at
>>
>>
>> http://egovau.blogspot.com.au/2015/11/using-open-data-for-insights-into.html
>>
>> - I actually got a second wind yesterday when I realised this data has a
>> lot of uses I hadn't previously. I've realised the charities data is often
>> the only list of services for particular issues across Australia -
>> information that I've been searching for elsewhere (like homelessness
>> services) and simply doesn't exist so it is going to be a bit of a pity if
>> I can't figure out the business side of it. I guess that is why an
>> incubator would be really helpful, assuming they help with that kind of
>> thing.
>>
>>
>> BTW, I added search by LGA to the charities data yesterday
>> https://openaus.net.au/commonwealth/charities/index.php?council=ACT&submit=Go
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>>
>> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
>> ________________________________________
>>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au> - Open Data Reporter | OpenAus
>> <https://openaus.net.au> - Founder and Developer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* okfn-au <okfn-au-bounces at lists.okfn.org> on behalf of Craig
>> Thomler <craig.thomler at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 25 November 2015 2:47 PM
>>
>> *To:* Open Knowledge discussion list for Australia.
>> *Subject:* Re: [@OKau] How can we fund important Open Source projects?
>>
>> Hi Rosie,
>>
>> Have you considered applying for DataStart? (datastart.com.au) - even if
>> you're not sure you're the right person to commercialise what you are doing
>> you could access some valuable advice.
>>
>> I'd also suggest that you speak to some of the start-up centric groups in
>> Sydney, run by them what you've been doing and see if they have suggestions
>> on ways to commercialise your approaches.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>>
>> Craig Thomler
>>
>> http://egovau.blogspot.com
>> http://twitter.com/CraigThomler
>> http://au.linkedin.com/in/craigthomler
>> http://www.slideshare.net/CraigThomler
>> <http://www.slideshare.net/CraigThomler%20>
>>
>> *Mobile:* 0411 780 194 (*International:* +61 411 780 194)
>> *Phone:* 02 6161 4508 (*International: *+61 2 6161 4508)
>> *Skype:* craig.thomler
>>
>> On 25 November 2015 at 07:30, Rosie Williams <BudgetAus at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Craig,
>>>
>>>
>>> While what I've done is valuable it is not always the case that people
>>> want to know the truth that something reveals. Over time I came to
>>> realise that just because I wanted to know the truth about what was going
>>> on with top-down government spending it didn't mean that other people were
>>> going to embrace it if the data did not sit comfortably within the
>>> narratives they were getting from elsewhere. Had the site got into the
>>> education system/unis people would be able to use it to form their own
>>> conclusions but I don't have the kind of business experience to make those
>>> kinds of things happen.
>>>
>>>
>>> So I moved on to giving people information about their specific
>>> location- thinking this would be of more interest to people given this info
>>> is not available anywhere else as this has never been done before. I don't
>>> know if you recall when we met at a startup breakfast meet in
>>> Canberra right back after I had first created BudgetAus and as we sat round
>>> the table the idea came up of giving people funding by electorate. I don't
>>> think either of us at that time thought that was likely to happen. 3 years
>>> on this is what I've created at https://openaus.net.au searchable by
>>> postcode, LGA, fed electorate etc but I've had almost no interest in it. I
>>> find this lack of interest a bit odd.
>>>
>>>
>>> I am scratching my head about that. I've done an enormous amount of work
>>> constructing things that have never been done before with data that I have
>>> to say is extremely difficult to work with. Perhaps I'm just the wrong
>>> person to have done something like this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps I can sell to someone better placed to turn it into a going
>>> concern. I don't think I have those particular skills & contacts and
>>> without them the skill & work completed is potentially going to waste. Any
>>> ideas?
>>> OpenAus
>>> Testimonials" I’ve worked with Rosie Williams on budget data
>>> transparency since November 2013. Rosie has developed her OpenAus data
>>> project into the best government ...
>>> Read more... <https://openaus.net.au/>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
>>> ________________________________________
>>>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au> - Open Data Reporter | OpenAus
>>> <https://openaus.net.au> - Founder and Developer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* okfn-au <okfn-au-bounces at lists.okfn.org> on behalf of Craig
>>> Thomler <craig.thomler at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 24 November 2015 4:36 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* Open Knowledge discussion list for Australia.
>>> *Subject:* Re: [@OKau] How can we fund important Open Source projects?
>>>
>>> Hi Rosie,
>>>
>>> You should also think about who your customer is.
>>>
>>> Yes the public (citizens) are technically the audience for governance
>>> transparency services, but citizens don't pay for these services, they
>>> expect them to be baked into the service offer from government.
>>>
>>> Generally citizens in Australia don't experience pain as a result of
>>> lack of governance transparency, so they don't see the value in expending
>>> money or time to alleviate it.
>>>
>>> You may find customers amongst businesses who see data as a route to
>>> profits, but again this is a limited market with quite specific needs, so
>>> they're only interested in a subset of the data and very specific services
>>> which don't always serve a transparency objective.
>>>
>>> You might find a few customers amongst NGOs focused on government
>>> transparency - however these groups are weak and diffuse in Australia as
>>> there's no real pain (again) from failures to be transparent, and they are
>>> very restricted in what they can afford to pay.
>>>
>>> Finally there's government's themselves, who often have the most to gain
>>> from transparency initiatives due to the internal return and the perceptual
>>> value externally. They have money and interest, but difficult purchase
>>> processes to navigate and are unreliable payers (as many in the grant space
>>> recognise).
>>>
>>> Ultimately if you're seeking to commercialize open data you need to look
>>> at where there's pain points in the market that people will pay to
>>> alleviate.
>>>
>>> There are opportunities (such as transport data), these are limited but
>>> could fund your broader work.
>>>
>>> You could also consider offering your services to the open data team in
>>> NSW government or the DTO - your experience using open data is valuable and
>>> something that people on the collection/release side don't always have.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Rosie Williams <BudgetAus at hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I certainly don't expect Paul to answer on behalf of loads of other
>>>> people but he was the one who specified public interest and use as the
>>>> criteria for decision making wrt OKFN projects so I didn't think asking him
>>>> if that info was available publicly was a tough question to answer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that if the answer to the question I asked about decision
>>>> making & data used it is not common knowledge among OKI staff or anyone
>>>> else reading this thread then it is not readily available and there'd be
>>>> little point asking for it elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As for how to answer your original question about financial
>>>> sustainability you might be right that more people would contribute on the
>>>> other list. I'm just following up a thread you started here. I grant you
>>>> that my particular questions may get replies from more people elsewhere so
>>>> thankyou for your suggestions in that regard.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was involved in a similar discussion months ago on the Influence
>>>> Mappers Google group to which the founder of mySociety contributed his
>>>> opinions on sustainability based on his experiences
>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/influencemapping/_ecGe9UM_PM/GLUE-PGyBAAJ
>>>>
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/influencemapping/_ecGe9UM_PM/GLUE-PGyBAAJ>
>>>> Re: [Influence Mappers Group] Re: Introduce yourself
>>>> Posted by Tom Steinberg, Aug 16, 2015 3:20 AM
>>>> Read more...
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/influencemapping/_ecGe9UM_PM/GLUE-PGyBAAJ>
>>>>
>>>> I've begun to suspect Tom is right and that having an established
>>>> audience you can reach at least gives you the personal momentum required to
>>>> continue whereas when there is no one depending on your work and willing to
>>>> pay for it, it is pretty hard to justify even to yourself that you are
>>>> meeting a need. If you can get sizeable donors where people in the street
>>>> are not asked to pay their own $$ for it, then that is one audience but the
>>>> audience is not the general public but the donors. Grants may be based on
>>>> the number of users but it there is a healthy user base it is difficult to
>>>> understand why this is not a source of income instead of grants, why there
>>>> is a disjuncture between who is seen to be using a project and who is
>>>> paying for it (at least in rich countries).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's why I'm interested in who pays for transparency projects that
>>>> are begun in the name of the citizen because it would appear the person in
>>>> the street has little use for them if none of them are funded by the public
>>>> themselves.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess there are open data projects people pay to use in Australia-
>>>> there are other tender projects out there however these do not contain
>>>> political information so are not political transparency projects like mine.
>>>> I've actually had the least interest in the project with the most work and
>>>> political transparency goals (tenders) and the project with the least
>>>> sophistication (parliamentary entitlements) received the most interest
>>>> thanks to Bronwyn Bishop. I was curious to know if this lack of engagement
>>>> is typical for political transparency projects so I can make the best
>>>> decision I can about whether it is right to walk away from transparency
>>>> projects in favour of doing something else more popular but perhaps lacking
>>>> political significance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au> - Open Data Reporter | OpenAus
>>>> <https://openaus.net.au> - Founder and Developer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* okfn-au <okfn-au-bounces at lists.okfn.org> on behalf of Steven
>>>> De Costa <steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 24 November 2015 8:46 AM
>>>> *To:* Open Knowledge discussion list for Australia.
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [@OKau] How can we fund important Open Source projects?
>>>>
>>>> heya Rosie,
>>>>
>>>> There are lots of people on discuss.okfn.org who can add to such a
>>>> discussion. Open Knowledge operates in dozens of countries so it is a bit
>>>> tough for Paul to answer on behalf of everyone's experience.
>>>>
>>>> The CKAN site is referencing Open Knowledge Services, which is a
>>>> service group setup to provide project and support for a fee. They recover
>>>> the cost of wages on funded engagements.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *STEVEN DE COSTA *|
>>>> *EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR *www.linkdigital.com.au
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 08:21, Rosie Williams <BudgetAus at hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I apologise in advance if I am asking difficult questions but I have
>>>>> to make decisions about whether or not to continue my own projects which is
>>>>> why I'm interested in this thread, what defines a project as successful and
>>>>> how financial sustainability is achieved- particularly in projects that
>>>>> contribute to transparency given that has been my area of interest to date.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Due to Steven mentioning that he can't afford to fund developers for
>>>>> the product he installs, I assumed CKAN relied on volunteer developers but
>>>>> according to the CKAN site 'A full-time professional development team
>>>>> at the Open Knowledge Foundation maintains CKAN and can provide full
>>>>> support and hosting with SLAs. ' However CKAN code also appears to be free
>>>>> to use so it is interesting to wonder where the money is coming from to
>>>>> build it and whether CKAN owes it's existence to grants or is in some way
>>>>> self-sustaining. I'm having trouble determining such things with the
>>>>> information provided by OKFN as the financials do not go into that kind of
>>>>> detail.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The OKFN financials list a number of sources of income so I guess that
>>>>> together with these donations & consultancy fees, volunteers also
>>>>> contribute to the worth of the projects listed in the annual report though
>>>>> the extent of that contribution does not appear to be measured or collated
>>>>> in the reports.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul, you mention earlier in the thread that OKFN projects rely on
>>>>> public use and interest to continue (as opposed to the contribution of
>>>>> volunteer labour). Which data does the OKFN rely on to measure public
>>>>> use and interest and is that publicly available?  With a standard
>>>>> business it is a bit easier because you have customer numbers as one
>>>>> measure of interest but the OKFN does not rely on user pays so I'm curious
>>>>> to know what data forms the basis of the decisions taken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au> - Open Data Reporter | OpenAus
>>>>> <https://openaus.net.au> - Founder and Developer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* okfn-au <okfn-au-bounces at lists.okfn.org> on behalf of Paul
>>>>> Walsh <paulywalsh at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, 12 November 2015 6:18 PM
>>>>> *To:* Open Knowledge discussion list for Australia.
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [@OKau] How can we fund important Open Source projects?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Rosie,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the question of how open source projects can become
>>>>> self-sustaining is a large area of research and diving in, you’ll find that
>>>>> there is no single answer, as "open source project” is a signifier for a
>>>>> huge range of efforts with diversity in motivation, funding, corporate
>>>>> backing, and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stats on contribution to any OKI open source projects can be found
>>>>> using GitHub’s APIs for repository activity - all our code is there.
>>>>> Although, I think that your interest is less in “open source projects” and
>>>>> more in “open data projects that use (and build) open source software to
>>>>> achieve social goals”, in which case I’m not sure that will help greatly.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are around 20 paid staff at OKI, and a range of additional
>>>>> contractors on some projects - usually for development.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Reliance" on volunteers is something that is hard to measure and
>>>>> reason about. Reliance, as a term, suggests to me that you want to
>>>>> understand if a project lives or dies based on volunteer contribution
>>>>> alone. In general, the answer to that is no.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 Nov 2015, at 12:28 AM, Rosie Williams <BudgetAus at hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi and thanks for the comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> The conclusion I've come to wrt to discussion of the more general
>>>>> question of how important open source projects can become
>>>>> self-sustaining  (OKFN projects among them) is that there's limited
>>>>> scope for that discussion because there doesn't seem to be easily
>>>>> accessible data to inform it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The OKFN seems to be making ends meet but how that relates to specific
>>>>> projects is unclear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having stats on the number of paid staff, even an estimate of the
>>>>> number of volunteers working on each project, the money coming in to fund
>>>>> each project and where it is coming from would be useful and what I would
>>>>> expect to see in an annual report. I also think it would be useful to know
>>>>> who the visitors to each project/site are so evaluations can be made about
>>>>> engagement to learn from what works or does not. Perhaps the reliance on
>>>>> volunteers prohibits expectations of gathering & reporting this kind of
>>>>> data.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will probably end up blogging about this to have something more
>>>>> comprehensive to pass to the appropriate person.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au/> - Open Data Reporter | OpenAus
>>>>> <https://openaus.net.au/> - Founder and Developer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
>>>>> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
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