[open-bibliography] New BNB sample data available

Thu Feb 3 17:29:15 UTC 2011

Quoting Owen Stephens <owen at ostephens.com>:

> Thanks Karen.
>
> At the moment the RDA property does not reflect this nuance - is this a
> change in RDA, or is there a separate property in RDA that represents the
> transcribed value?

No, unfortunately the cataloging rules themselves (and the elements  
that they spawn) are not overt about this distinction; you have to  
read through many paragraphs of text to discern which elements and  
areas are transcribed, and sometimes it isn't a binary condition --  
"transcribe unless..." . It's been an underlying philosophy in  
cataloging that until recently has gone unchallenged. Some of us are  
trying to bring it more to the foreground so that we can clear up the  
"data-ness" of the library catalog data.

> The isbd:P1016 element is less clear to me - the definition says:
> "Relates a resource to the name of the place associated on the prescribed
> source of information with the name of the publisher, producer or
> distributor."
> and an additional note
> "Usually given on the preferred source of information as the name of a city.
> If no publisher, producer or distributor is named, it is the place from
> which the resource was issued or distributed."
>
> This sounds like it might mean that this represents the transcribed value
> but I'm not sure - can you clarify?

It's like reading someone else's code, isn't it? :-) "Prescribed  
source of information" is where you take the data from, and you have  
to dig around in the rules to learn where that is. "usually given  
on..." implies transcription. So I'm reading that as being  
transcribed. Another clue is to know whether the cataloging rules in  
question follow ISBD, which says: (0.5) "Elements in areas 1, 2, 4 and  
6 are normally transcribed from the resource..."

>
> Anyhow, it seems to me that where the transcribed value is actually an
> identifiable place, we should not ignore that just because the data was a
> transcription from the title page? That is - if we can offer a geoname URI,
> why would we not? However, what it may suggest is that an additional
> property is needed to represent the transcribed value vs the actual place
>
> What do you think?

Yes, exactly. As long as the library cataloging rules require  
transcription we will have to have some data elements represented in  
two ways: as transcribed, and as data. Right now, RDA is not good at  
distinguishing between these and my gut feeling is that we will need  
to add some additional data elements to cover this distinction.

kc

>
> Owen
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Karen Coyle <kcoyle at kcoyle.net> wrote:
>
>> Owen, one hitch here is that place of publication is not a geographic data
>> element. I know that sounds odd, but in fact "place of publication" and
>> "publisher" in fact are:
>>
>> "the place of publication as listed on the title page"
>> "the publisher as listed on the title page"
>>
>> They are what library cataloging calls "transcribed" elements, and are
>> intended to be surrogates for the actual title page (along with title proper
>> and statement of responsibility). So if either is wrong or fictitious, it is
>> still transcribed. (There are more caveats here: some cataloging rules allow
>> you to abbreviate or expand, etc. etc.)
>>
>> In fact, there is no data element in library cataloging for either the
>> place of publication or the publisher as an entity. MARC adds a coded
>> country of publication, as noted below, and that *is* a geographic entity.
>>
>> kc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Owen Stephens <owen at ostephens.com>:
>>
>>  Thanks
>>>
>>> I guess that ideally I'd see the more specific place of publication
>>> identified by a geonames http uri, then the rest of the hierarchy of
>>> geography can be dealt with by the more specialised resources available.
>>>
>>> What I don't like about the approach you describe is it establishes a
>>> convention outside the formal definitions in isbd and rda (as far as I can
>>> see?) - if both the 'country level' and more specific (where available)
>>> are
>>> to be represented within the BL data, then I think properties that match
>>> these definitions would be needed for it to be useful - otherwise you may
>>> as
>>> well use the same property for both.
>>>
>>> That said, I'd go back to my original preference  - I'm not sure the
>>> benefit
>>> you get from expressing 'London' and 'England' separately when you could
>>> just use http://sws.geonames.org/2643743/about.rdf
>>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Deliot, Corine <Corine.Deliot at bl.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   Yes, it is to reflect the different granularity. The data in the 260$a
>>>> is
>>>> at the city, town level whereas the data recorded in the 008/15-17 in the
>>>> MARC record is at the country level. We thought it may be helpful to keep
>>>> that distinction but if the consensus is that it is not, then we can use
>>>> the
>>>> same element.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Corine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* open-bibliography-bounces at lists.okfn.org [mailto:
>>>> open-bibliography-bounces at lists.okfn.org] *On Behalf Of *Owen Stephens
>>>> *Sent:* 03 February 2011 13:08
>>>>
>>>> *To:* List for Working Group on Open Bibliographic Data
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [open-bibliography] New BNB sample data available
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Corine - is there any reason why the place of publication from 260 is
>>>> done
>>>> as isbd:P1016 while the new country code is put into
>>>> rda:placeOfProduction
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Deliot, Corine <Corine.Deliot at bl.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is to let you know that there are two new sample data files
>>>> available
>>>> from our website
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/datasamples.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The first file is an updated version of the BNB in RDF/XML. The
>>>> substantive
>>>> change is that the conversion now carries over the MARC country code for
>>>> the
>>>> place of publication.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The second file is based on the same conversion but includes links to
>>>> linked data sources: LCSH in SKOS, MARC country and language codes, Dewey
>>>> info, Lexvo, GeoNames and the RDF Book Mashup.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Feedback welcome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Corine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Corine Deliot
>>>>
>>>> Metadata Standards Analyst
>>>>
>>>> British Library
>>>>
>>>> Boston Spa, Wetherby
>>>>
>>>> West Yorkshire LS 23 7BQ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> open-bibliography mailing list
>>>> open-bibliography at lists.okfn.org
>>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-bibliography
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Owen Stephens
>>>> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>>> Web: http://www.ostephens.com
>>>> Email: owen at ostephens.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> open-bibliography mailing list
>>>> open-bibliography at lists.okfn.org
>>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-bibliography
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Owen Stephens
>>> Owen Stephens Consulting
>>> Web: http://www.ostephens.com
>>> Email: owen at ostephens.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karen Coyle
>> kcoyle at kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>> skype: kcoylenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> open-bibliography mailing list
>> open-bibliography at lists.okfn.org
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-bibliography
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Owen Stephens
> Owen Stephens Consulting
> Web: http://www.ostephens.com
> Email: owen at ostephens.com
>

-- 
Karen Coyle
kcoyle at kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
ph: 1-510-540-7596
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet