[open-government] UK Government transparency update (and democracy?)

Fri Dec 10 20:31:53 UTC 2010

Sorry guys, Im having a hard time understanding this post. Paola, can you
please elaborate what it is exactly that you found disturbing. I myself
cannot see how someonw can work to promote open-data and not see its
implications in terms of accountability and democratic participation. It
might be that he/she are in it for other reasons and the democratic aspect
is not their *main* concern, so be it. But I can't see how they can be
hostile to the idea of democracy, as if so - why release data to the demos?

So please try to explain what it is exactly that you heard or read that
bothered you so we can better understand where the problem is if at all.

Thanks,

Roy

2010/12/10 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio at gmail.com>

> Hi Dave!
>
> thanks for reply
>
>>
>> I actually think most people in the open government movement see open data
>> and open government as reinforcing democracy... indeed, for many I think
>> democracy is a presumed precondition for greater transparency
>>
>
> Of course, this is what I also thought, that's my point.
>
> But based on conversations and email exchanges ( may send you a snip) some
> people who are riding the open government data wave do not believe in
> democracy at all, or rather, they believe its a 'nice idea that does not
> work'. Not only they avoid the subject, they avoid answering questions,
> expliciTly state that they do not have to be accountable to anyone,  make it
> plain that democracy is not part of their ethos.
>
> Thats what put me on the alert a bit.
>
> Perhaps we should organise a panel at the next OGDCamp - or other related
> events, (an open panel) to dig a bit deeper into various interesting aspects
> of the relationship between open data and democracy.
>
> I am particulary interested in exploring  ' what mechanisms can monitor the
> uptake of democratic processes in relation to open government data
> initiatives' , that is, how do we know , for example, that everyone gets the
> chance to show their work, and inclusion in the open government agenda  is
> not engineered and orchestrated by an elite who decides who gets a slot to
> speak, and who does not?
>
> A lot can be inferred by the organisational processes in place, and what
> arterfacts are used to share information and decision making (is a wiki
> actually open to all and used for planning? or is the wiki just used as a
> facade to show what someone behind the scene may have planned?)
>
> Look forward to explore the topic further
>
>
> PDM
>
>
>
>
>> . Moreover, the fact that TBL and others talk so much about the need for
>> data journalists is a recognition that the data being liberated in of itself
>> is not enough, we need a way to ensure that it gets into the regular
>> discourse and empowers citizens of all stripes.
>>
>> I'd love to see the clips/references you refer to as I really didn't get
>> the same vibe out of OGDcamp at all - quite the opposite, really felt like
>> most of the people in the room see themselves as advocates of democratic
>> values.
>>
>> cheers,
>> dave eaves
>>
>>
>> On 10-12-09 12:17 PM, Luigi Selmi wrote:
>>
>> Hi Paola,
>> I was at the OGDCamp in London but don't think to be the one that gave you
>> a card since I do not have cards. It is true that the term 'democracy'
>> doesn't come up very often when talking about transparency. Maybe it is
>> because there are a lot of people that comes from governments and
>> institutions that are more interested in the functioning of the current
>> practices and do not pay attention to what happen outside, to all the events
>> that send us signs of a crisis of the representative democracy. I live in
>> Italy and we have been experimenting for more than 16 years all the issues
>> about that. The last of these days is the of deputies' votes shopping to
>> support the current government. We are at the far edge of the representative
>> democracy crisis but also in the US and other western countries there are a
>> lot of issues that come up every time and cannot be solved within the
>> current model of democracy. We need transparency because we need the
>> knowledge to intervene every day not just to chose someone to go in the
>> parliament.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>>
>> Luigi Selmi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 17:51:17 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and
>> democracy?)
>> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
>> To: selmi_luigi at hotmail.com
>> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>>
>> Luigi
>>
>>  I obviously agree with you, and became terrified when I found out that
>> democracy, according to some working in the OGDCamp, is just an optional
>>
>>  (will send you a copy of the relevant snippets of email exchanges
>> separately, if you are interested)
>>
>>  What some of us defend and uphold by default  - democratic principles
>> and civil liberties as the foundation for good governance, including
>> self-governance - does not  always seem to be reflected in the philosophy of
>> current open government initiatives - quite the contrary, to my worry.
>>
>>  Democracy should never be taken for granted, but unfortunately  self
>> organisation is sometimes used as an excuse to justify the chaos where
>>  great inequalities, deliberate omissions and lack of democratic processes
>> become hidden and take place without anyone noticing.
>>
>>  Until we no longer can tell who is running the show, using what rules of
>> the game.
>>
>>  Perhaps at the next Camp we should propose this topic for discussion,
>>  and find a way to demand that the agenda is managed transparently and
>> fairly.
>>
>>  I will analyse the ODGCamp corpus when its published to see if we find
>> any instances of the word democracy that I may have missed on the day
>>
>>  PDM
>>
>>  (are you the Luigi who gave me his card? i am still going thru my notes,
>> will catch up soon)
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Luigi Selmi <selmi_luigi at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>  If 'transparency of information' is not related to democracy I wonder why
>> bother about it ? Open data and open government are steps towards a new kind
>> of democracy, more partecipatory, something that goes beyond the
>> representative democracy without falling into populism and
>> plebiscitaniarism.
>>
>>
>> Luigi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:09:17 +0000
>> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
>> To: javier at openrightsgroup.org
>> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>> Subject: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and
>> democracy?)
>>
>>
>> Javier
>>
>> thanks for the update
>>
>>  one the words that I have not seen come up much at the OGCAMP
>> is 'democracy', in fact some people cringed when I dared mention it
>>
>>  Some 'activists' seem to take the view that 'democratic process' is not
>> that much related
>> to 'trasparency of information'
>>
>>  Let us know when you hear of something in that respect
>>
>>  cheers
>>
>>  PDM
>>
>>
>>
>> 2010/12/7 Javier Ruiz Diaz <javier at openrightsgroup.org>
>>
>>  Dear all
>>
>>  It seems they were listening during the OGD camp.
>>
>>
>> http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-cabinet-office/plans-performance/transparency-privacy-data.aspx
>>
>>  Tentatively good news, lets see the details in the next few days.
>>
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