[open-government] Yes, Microsoft OGDI is open source

Fri Jul 22 17:00:08 UTC 2011

On 22 July 2011 17:43, Philip Ashlock <phil at openplans.org> wrote:
> In my understanding, the definition of open source is typically used more
> autonomously so its usage applies just to the specific piece of code you're
> referring to and not all its dependencies as well. There are lots of open
> source projects built for Microsoft Windows or Amazon EC2, neither of which
> are open. If you took a purist stance on it, you'd be asking for everything
> to be open source including the BIOS on the server hosting the app.

I think the issue here is that the interlocking between OGDI and Azure
is much more fundamental and tighter than, say, running Postgresql on
an EC2 instance. Specifically the entire backend for OGDI depends on
the structured storage framework in Azure which isn't portable in any
way (as I understand it).

My point here would be if that if one were talking about formats or
clients libraries with working with those formats then the OGDI could
be considered open source but this discussion arose around this wiki
page: <http://wiki.civiccommons.org/Data_Platform>. In this case the
part of OGDI we're looking at is the data platform which, I believe,
depends fundamentally on Azure and its storage system and
functionality.

> In the case of OGDI, I think it's fair to say that the fact that it relies
> on so many propriety dependencies is a major limiting factor, but it doesn't
> mean it's not open source. The code is released under an open source
> license, that's what makes it open source.

I think this is becoming a definitional issue of what we mean by
'OGDI'. Perhaps we should say something like "OGDI Data Platform". In
which case, as discussed I don't think this should be designated as
open source given the fundamental requirement and integral nature of
non-opensource components.

> Open source doesn't necessarily imply platform portability or modularity,
> though that's often the case. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the case
> for OGDI.
>
> On the other hand, Windows platforms and .Net development skills are by far
> the most prevalelent skills and platforms for governments in North America.
> Governments shouldn't be forced to move everything to the more open
> Unix-centric environment just to gain the benefits of open source processes.

I agree though of course there are many things that can run on
non-unix environments that aren't .NET (including standard LAMP).

> Though ultimately this may help them see the benefits of the broader open
> source ecosystem which tends to be Unix-centric.

Quite agree. As I often say (in a slightly different context):

"don't be fanatic, be pragmatic" (apologies to grammar purists).

Rufus

> Phil
>
> On 7/22/11 11:26 AM, Brian Gryth wrote:
>
> Rufus,
>
> You make good points.  Seeing that components of OGDI are open source and
> others are not.  Would it be appropriate to break the questions into
> component parts, ie API and hardware?  Or to ask a clarifying question about
> whether components open, proprietary, or both? It would seem more clear and
> dare I say transparent.
>
> Thanks
> Brian
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 4:31 AM, Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 21 July 2011 00:05, Philip Ashlock <phil at openplans.org> wrote:
>> > I was looking over the edit history for the Data Platforms Survey (an
>> > open
>> > google doc) on the Data Platforms page of the wiki
>> > (http://wiki.civiccommons.org/Data_Platform) and noticed that the Yes/No
>> > field for whether a project was open source had been changed from Yes to
>> > No
>> > for Microsoft OGDI.
>> >
>> > I figured it was worth making a point to change that back and comment on
>> > it
>> > as to dispel the assumption and stereotype. Microsoft OGDI (Open
>> > Government
>> > Data Initiative) is in fact open source software released under the
>> > Microsoft Public License which is an OSI approved Open Source License.
>> >
>> > http://ogdi.codeplex.com/
>> > http://www.opensource.org/licenses/MS-PL
>>
>> The point I would make here is that while the API (and client software
>>  on ogdi.codeplex.com) is open source the underlying platform which
>> does all the heavy lifting and storage (as I understand it) is not
>> open source.
>>
>> The question I would ask then is how functional is this platform
>> without the azure backend -- can you plug it into an open source
>> backend and have it function.
>>
>> I think you are raising here an important question as to what makes a
>> 'platform' open source. In my opinion, I don't think that an "open"
>> API and open source client implementations make something open source
>> (when most of the 'hard' work is in the backend). I think the test
>> here should be: are all the major (or even all) the components needed
>> to run this open source?
>>
>> > I'm cross posting this to Civic Commons Discuss and the OKFN Open Gov
>> > list
>> > because the culprit is on one and not the other. Not that I'm going to
>> > name
>> > names, Rufus, ;)
>>
>> I would stand by this assessment based on my present understanding of
>> how Azure and OGDI work. I'd of course be happy to stand corrected if
>> one can do a useful deployment of the open source components of the
>> OGDI framework without using Azure (and specifically Azure's db
>> storage layer which I understand is specialized to SQL Server).
>>
>> > Not that I don't think CKAN is the leading open source player in this
>> > space,
>> > I just want us to be respectful and acknowledge that there's room for
>> > many
>> > in the ecosystem.
>>
>> Just to be absolutely clear: I completely agree and believe there are
>> already other open source options in this ecosystem (e.g. the
>> dataverse system) and I think it is great that Microsoft are doing so
>> much here -- both on open data and on tools. However, based on my
>> understanding so far of how the OGDI 'platform' as one would
>> practically deploy it I do not think it is open source.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rufus
>>
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>
>

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