[open-government] Advice on Open Dataset Terms & Conditions in Hong Kong

Wed Jul 24 17:27:17 UTC 2013

Hello.

Let me try to crack at another question you asked:

What steps could be taken to get governments to follow these guidelines?

1) How about an analysis on the relation between the policy goals for the
HK's "open data" efforts and this Terms and Conditions? Is open data just
about increasing transparency? If gaining economic benefits for
HK is among the goals, then making the T&Cs more user-friendly
would make sense.
http://www.gov.hk/en/theme/psi/freqaskedquestions/#q2 seems to suggest
that HK open data is, like many others, about promoting reuse.

Even if the transparency is the only goal, some visualization and other
manipulation can contribute the public's understanding
of otherwise complex data and issues. Openspending.org probably
illustrates this point well. Quite a few data portals has a section on
Apps using the data. Showing some of those may give government
officials some idea on the potential of more permissive conditions.

2) how about giving some feedback from potential users, like a
local geek/hacker community regarding the terms& conditions?
I know in some areas, Open Knowledge Foundation,
Wikimedia, Creative Commons, and/ or open source communities
work together in providing opinions and other inputs to the government.
Are you in touch with any of them?

3) Does HK government care about how other governments are doing?
Then explaining OGL 2.0 or some other open data licenses may work.

Best,

Tomo
 OKF Japan/ Creative Commons Japan/ GLOCOM

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Bill Proudfit <bill.proudfit at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> To clear up where Hong Kong sits in the Chinese legal framework.
>
> We are a 'special administrative region of the People's Republic of China.
> Hong Kong law is based on British Common Law even now 16 years after our
> return to the motherland.  Laws are written in English and English is used
> for all interpretive purposes by courts, i.e. Chinese translations are only
> provided only for convenience.  Just to be clear mainland Chinese law only
> applies in Hong Kong within very narrow confines of what is called 'the
> Basic Law', sometimes referred to euphemistically as a mini-constitution.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> On 23 July 2013 20:17, Brian Gryth <briangryth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Andrew,
>>
>> I don't disagree, but these terms maybe a reflection of Chinese law. As I
>> am not an expert I can't make further comment on the particulars.
>>
>> Could you expand on your indemnity comment? Is your concern related to
>> Data.One's indemnity clause? Or is your concern with indemnity in general?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Brian
>>
>> Sent from my Incredible 4G
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2013 5:09 AM, "Andrew Stott" <andrew.stott at dirdigeng.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for drawing these Terms and Conditions for the Hong Kong Data.One
>>> site to our attention.  We regularly discuss whether licences for government
>>> data conform to the Open Definition (http://opendefinition.org/) on the
>>> od-discuss list.  Of course, Data is not Open Data unless it is Open.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you that the Terms and Conditions for the Hong Kong Data.One
>>> site do not seem to conform with the Open Definition, and so the data could
>>> not be considered “open data”. Particularly problematical are:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (1) the requirement for any re-distribution of the data to be “in its
>>> original format” and “reproduced … accurately”.  This looks like a “no
>>> derivatives” provision, which would prevent the data from being Open.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (2) the ban on the sale of the data – “sale of any Data by you is
>>> absolutely prohibited in all circumstances”.  This conflicts with the Open
>>> Definition, and there are a number of use cases  and business models (eg
>>> Data Curation, service-level guaranteed APIs, information-giving
>>> applications, Value-Added processing) where charges may well be made even
>>> though the downstream customer could still obtain the raw data directly and
>>> free of charge from the government.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (3) the clauses limiting “unpleasant” uses of the data – this means that
>>> that data cannot be freely reused, and these matters should be handled
>>> through the normal law and its enforcement rather than through licensing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The provision for the indemnity by the user to the government for the use
>>> of data supplied by the government is also problematical.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More widely, the problem here seems to be that the terms and conditions
>>> do not seem to envisage the sort of use cases which have been proven in
>>> other jurisdictions to give economic and social value and to generate
>>> business innovation.  Open Data is about reuse of data, not just access to
>>> it.  The no-derivatives requirement and the ban on the sale of the data
>>> together would make the development of a vibrant applications market
>>> practically impossible.  So what are the Hong Kong Government’s other policy
>>> objectives here?!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew Stott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org
>>> [mailto:open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org] On Behalf Of Bill Proudfit
>>> Sent: 23 July 2013 01:42
>>> To: open-government at lists.okfn.org; od-discuss at lists.okfn.org; Mart van
>>> de Ven
>>> Subject: [open-government] Advice on Open Dataset Terms & Conditions in
>>> Hong Kong
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The HK Government has the Data.One site with about 1,500 or so datasets.
>>> I'm interested to know if the terms & conditions covering these datasets are
>>> within the range of variation of the terms and conditions of other
>>> governmental open dataset sites.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the link to the HK terms & conditions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.gov.hk/en/theme/psi/terms_conditions/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Open Data Handbook has this guidance on licenses.  I'm taking
>>> licenses to mean the same as terms & conditions.   It seems to me that the
>>> HK Data.One site's terms & conditions are not in step with these guidelines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it common for locations to have opendata sites which do not meet these
>>> guidelines?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What steps could be taken to get governments to follow these guidelines?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://opendatahandbook.org/en/how-to-open-up-data/apply-an-open-license.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any guidance or suggestion would be great.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bill Proudfit
>>> 鮑偉霖
>>> Hong Kong
>>> baoman.wordpress.com
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/proudfit
>>> twitter ~ baoman
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> open-government mailing list
>>> open-government at lists.okfn.org
>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-government
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bill Proudfit
> 鮑偉霖
> Hong Kong
> baoman.wordpress.com
> www.linkedin.com/in/proudfit
> twitter ~ baoman
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> open-government mailing list
> open-government at lists.okfn.org
> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-government
>