No subject
Sun Mar 31 09:34:23 UTC 2013
about this and xbrl format seems to be successfully used by private =
companies. I have to add that that info is not public (no Freedom of =
Information Law in Spain yet), although you can request it at a Registry =
and obtain it for an expensive fee . =20
=20
But is there any data or evidence that local governments are using it to =
submit their reports, or have they just been encouraged? Do you know =
whether using this format in other countries implies that reports will =
be accessible to the general public? Can you help me find this info?
=20
Thanks a lot,=20
Concha Catalan=20
--=20
Visita mi blog: http://barcelonalittleshell.blogspot.com.es/
Visita opengov.cat <http://opengov.cat>=20
=20
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 08:50:33 -0700
From: "Marc Joffe" <marc at publicsectorcredit.org =
<mailto:marc at publicsectorcredit.org> >
Subject: [OpenSpending] XBRL for Local Government Financial Reporting
To: "'OpenSpending Discussion List'" <openspending at lists.okfn.org =
<mailto:openspending at lists.okfn.org> >
Message-ID: <016c01cea986$7d906550$78b12ff0$@publicsectorcredit.org =
<http://publicsectorcredit.org> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
A financial industry opinion site carries my case for using XBRL =
(eXtensible
Business Reporting Language) in the US municipal bond market. European
readers may be interested in the example of Spain using XBRL for its =
local
government financial reporting.
http://tabbforum.com/opinions/the-case-for-muni-xbrl-bringing-municipal-f=
ina =
<http://tabbforum.com/opinions/the-case-for-muni-xbrl-bringing-municipal-=
financial-disclosure-into-the-21st-century>=20
ncial-disclosure-into-the-21st-century
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Friedrich<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks for your thoughtful comments and for sharing the link to the =
online guide.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In the US, the fastest way to get to machine readable fiscal =
reporting is through the regulatory community=E2=80=99s control over the =
capital markets.=C2=A0 The SEC=E2=80=99s mandate to use XBRL in 2004 =
goes a long way toward explaining the standard=E2=80=99s penetration in =
recent years.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Since XBRL is already in the regulatory toolbox, it will be much =
easier to obtain its extension to another market (from corporate bonds =
to municipal bonds) than it would to advocate another =
standard.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I admit that this is an approach that works best in the US, because =
it has a very large amount of sub-sovereign debt that lacks central =
government guarantees. Because investors in state and local government =
securities are both numerous and now known to be taking risk, I can make =
a regulatory case that works well in the US and Canada =E2=80=93 but not =
in too many other countries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I agree with your concerns about the bureaucratic problems with XBRL =
and its vulnerability to corporate control.=C2=A0 In the US, the =
Financial Accounting Standards Board now owns the US GAAP taxonomy =
=E2=80=93 so the committee problems are reduced.=C2=A0 The FASB has a =
sister organization called the Government Accounting Standards Board =
=E2=80=93 which would be the likely candidate to own a muni XBRL =
taxonomy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I don=E2=80=99t think control by IBM and SAP is a foregone =
conclusion.=C2=A0 If this proposal were to succeed, small vendors and =
the open source community could develop tools that would output and read =
XBRL files.=C2=A0 Since XBRL is just XML, there is really no technical =
barrier stopping us from supporting it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Marc<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> =
openspending-bounces at lists.okfn.org =
[mailto:openspending-bounces at lists.okfn.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Friedrich Lindenberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 05, 2013 =
8:58 AM<br><b>To:</b> OpenSpending Discussion List<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [OpenSpending] XBRL for Local Government Financial =
Reporting<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hey =
Marc, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>this is very interesting to see XBRL being picked up, =
but I have to say that I'm critical of its use for non balance-sheet =
data [1]. XBRL is basically a massive framework in which any type of =
data could be expressed (it seems very committee-run), but the benefits =
really aren't clear to me.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You can have well-documented CSV or JSON, too - and =
for those formats there is tooling which is useable by journalists and =
other end-users who do not have the means to start a 3 year XBRL =
implementation effort. In the end, releasing government data as XBRL =
could mean that only solutions from large companies like IBM or SAP =
would be able to invest the effort necessary to interpret the =
data.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Of course it would be nice to have a standard, but =
this one is so large and ambiguous, I can't see it being useful in a =
technical sense. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- =
Friedrich <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>[1] <a =
href=3D"http://openspending.org/resources/gift/chapter4-2.html">http://op=
enspending.org/resources/gift/chapter4-2.html</a> <o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Marc Joffe <<a =
href=3D"mailto:marc at publicsectorcredit.org" =
target=3D"_blank">marc at publicsectorcredit.org</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Concha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thanks for these questions. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Like PDFs, XBRL files can either be published or kept =
confidential. The use of XBRL by itself is not a guarantee of =
transparency. However, a publicly available machine readable file =
is better than a publicly available PDF, since it is easier to =
process. In the world of machine readable files, I see XBRL as =
better than CSV because XBRL tags allow for more complete =
self-documentation of the data, especially if it the data is =
complex.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I don=E2=80=99t know how many Spanish cities actually file in XBRL =
format. I thought the fact that they had a fairly well developed =
site (at </span><a href=3D"http://www.e-local.es/index.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.e-local.es/index.html</a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> ) indicated a substantial investment and perhaps substantial =
compliance. On the other hand, I am not seeing recent =
updates.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I see some Spanish local government statistics here: </span><a =
href=3D"http://www.minhap.gob.es/EN-GB/ESTADISTICA%20E%20INFORMES/Paginas=
/estadisticaseinformes.aspx" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.minhap.gob.es/EN-GB/ESTADISTICA%20E%20INFORM=
ES/Paginas/estadisticaseinformes.aspx</a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>. Have you see this before?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Marc</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:openspending-bounces at lists.okfn.org" =
target=3D"_blank">openspending-bounces at lists.okfn.org</a> [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:openspending-bounces at lists.okfn.org" =
target=3D"_blank">openspending-bounces at lists.okfn.org</a>] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Conchita Catalan<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 04, 2013 =
3:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:openspending at lists.okfn.org" =
target=3D"_blank">openspending at lists.okfn.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>Subject:</b> [OpenSpending] XBRL for =
Local Government Financial =
Reporting<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hello =
Marc, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thank you =
for sending the article. It says <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif"'>"In Spain, =
the </span><a href=3D"http://www.e-local.es/index.html" =
target=3D"_blank"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#32698B;tex=
t-decoration:none'>local government ministry =
encourages</span></b></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif"'> more =
than </span><a =
href=3D"http://hitachidatainteractive.com/2011/02/09/xbrl-developments-in=
-spain-2011/" target=3D"_blank"><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#32698B;tex=
t-decoration:none'>16,000 municipalities and =
agencies</span></b></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif"'> to submit =
required budget reports in XBRL =
format. "</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif"'>From a =
journalist's point of view, I've been trying to find more info about =
this and xbrl format seems to be successfully used by private companies. =
I have to add that that info is not public (no Freedom of Information =
Law in Spain yet), although you can request it at a Registry and obtain =
it for an expensive fee . </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif"'>But is there =
any data or evidence that local governments are using it to submit their =
reports, or have they just been encouraged? Do you know whether =
using this format in other countries implies that reports will be =
accessible to the general public? Can you help me find this =
info?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif"'>Thanks a =
lot, </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif"'>Concha =
Catalan </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>-- =
<br>Visita mi blog: <a =
href=3D"http://barcelonalittleshell.blogspot.com.es/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://barcelonalittleshell.blogspot.com.es/</a><o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Visita <a =
href=3D"http://opengov.cat" =
target=3D"_blank">opengov.cat</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br>Message:=
3<br>Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 08:50:33 -0700<br>From: "Marc =
Joffe" <<a href=3D"mailto:marc at publicsectorcredit.org" =
target=3D"_blank">marc at publicsectorcredit.org</a>><br>Subject: =
[OpenSpending] XBRL for Local Government Financial Reporting<br>To: =
"'OpenSpending Discussion List'" <<a =
href=3D"mailto:openspending at lists.okfn.org" =
target=3D"_blank">openspending at lists.okfn.org</a>><br>Message-ID: =
<016c01cea986$7d906550$78b12ff0$@<a =
href=3D"http://publicsectorcredit.org" =
target=3D"_blank">publicsectorcredit.org</a>><br>Content-Type: =
text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"<br><br>A financial industry =
opinion site carries my case for using XBRL (eXtensible<br>Business =
Reporting Language) in the US municipal bond market. European<br>readers =
may be interested in the example of Spain using XBRL for its =
local<br>government financial reporting.<br><br><br><br><a =
href=3D"http://tabbforum.com/opinions/the-case-for-muni-xbrl-bringing-mun=
icipal-financial-disclosure-into-the-21st-century" =
target=3D"_blank">http://tabbforum.com/opinions/the-case-for-muni-xbrl-br=
inging-municipal-fina<br>ncial-disclosure-into-the-21st-century</a><br><b=
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