[wsfii-discuss] the cooperative way for India?

Mon Jul 10 10:15:26 UTC 2006

Yes I do agree that this is important and that by developing this topics 
we can all make a significant contribution for developing new startups. 
It has lots of sense i todays world. Also glad to know that this 
discussion gains interest from others.

Good idea to call it "Spontaneous Networking  Platform". I think that 
this name defines very well what we are talking about, and helps to 
distinguish with similar, maybe related comcepts, but slightly distinct 
things like "mesh networks", dynamic routings, collaborative wikis, etc.

I'll try to contribute with a first draft and high level vision of this 
"Spontaneous Networking Platform" as soon as I can, so then will be 
easier to start discussion on this and see if the idea get tracking. No 
problem if someone takes this lead first.

Certainly by discussing the concepts in some of those meetings can also 
help a lot. Berlin OS 4 is the one that looks more accessible for me.

Ramon.

En/na Fred Pook ha escrit:
> Hi Ramon, Aaron and all,
>
> The points you 2 are hitting on in this exchange and the experiences
> you have from your real-life community network are so valuable for the
> fledgling startups in India that we should not let this go up in
> smoke.
> I suggest that we work on all this in face to face workshops in the
> coming months. 2 great opportunities to meet are in Germany soon.
>
> - First there is the wireless community camp
>  5-13 August 2006 in Jersbek near Hamburg.
>  https://snr.freifunk.net/trac/wcc
>
> - Second is Wizards of OS 4 in Berlin.
> 14-16 September 2006
>  http://www.wizards-of-os.org/index.php?id=36&L=3
>
> Lets set up camp there if possible and do workshops on "Spontaneous
> Networking Platform" development. (thanks for the word,Spontaneous,
> Ramon :-)
> Other suggestion on the caption text of these workshops are welcome...
>
> Thanks, Fred
>
>
> On 7/9/06, Ramon Roca <ramon.roca at guifi.net> wrote:
>>
>> You are hitting good points Aaron, comments in line.
>>
>> En/na Aaron Kaplan ha escrit:
>> > (...)
>> >
>> >> Some of our conclusions were:
>> >> -A local community that just relies with the ability and 
>> availability of
>> >> a few networks admins can run a network of just about a few dozens of
>> >> routers
>> >> -By having some utilities, such as a database, wiki ant network 
>> console
>> >> (cacti, nagios....), it can be up to a hundred interconnected nodes?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Well, the current systems that I know of basically lack a scalable 
>> layer
>> > 2 (WLAN). So IMHO this goes first when it comes to scalability.
>> >
>> Yes, the "L" of wLan means "Local". They are designed just for a few
>> clients. Does not scale to something larger by his own nature.
>> But here I was not referring to wLan scalability, instead, I was talking
>> on tools for having lots of wLans, and linked together in a single
>> larger network by PtP links, etc.
>> If that's has to be done manually by expert net admins, those admins
>> will become the bottleneck and jeopardize the goal of easily allow
>> acquiring new connections from new users, and building links with the
>> communities of everyones  neighborhood.
>> >
>> >> -By building a database automatic IP provisioning system, maps, 
>> forums,
>> >> built-in online network monitoring, configuration tools etc... that
>> >> could bring us up to thousands?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Maybe this helps:
>> >
>> > We released our funkfeuer wireless mesh ISP software as GPL.
>> >
>> >    http://redeemer.sf.net
>> >
>> >
>> > It includes: node registration, user admin, VOIP integration (users 
>> can
>> > self administer), a nice google map, smokeping, nagios integration, 
>> etc.
>> > the idea is basically that we explain to people what to do, how to 
>> do it
>> > and then give them an account on our ISP software. There they can
>> > register IPs, register VOIP extensions etc themselves.
>> > The best feature about it: you can easily write small drivers that 
>> will
>> > feed your other systems from the node/user Db. (coding credits go to
>> > Wolfgang Nagele)
>> >
>> Cool. Yes. That's the point.
>> Quite similar in many areas with the apps we are using at guifi.net
>> The next point here has to be to forget about "easy drivers". Coding is
>> only "easy" to coders. Network users/promoters don't know how to build
>> drivers, in rare cases are programmers and just use what's available,
>> therefore the best will be simply be able to agree with an open XML
>> format, with "drivers" already built.
>> Something like this:
>> http://guifi.net/ca/guifi/nodexchange/2444/nodes
>> So, let's work on it ;)
>>
>> > I know many of the people in the free networking and meshing community
>> > don't feel happy about a centralized approach as described above.
>> >
>> BIG COMMENT HERE: I know about that feeling, but very often that's a big
>> fatal error and common misunderstanding. Being able to interchange
>> networks descriptions in XML, if someone wants to built in a innovative
>> way, will always have a chance to implement it.
>> But if simply builds the network in some way that only himself can
>> manage/know, in the real world that's not an open network because is
>> unable to easily inter operate with other networks, in other words,
>> that's closed to himself or his community. I mean, can be based on open
>> source, but could result a proprietary network. What's more
>> "centralized" than admins taking decisions of what/how/when and without
>> publishing their networks?
>> As an example, is like when someone says that is producing Open
>> Software, and certainly is willing for, but has only a working copy in
>> his well firewalled server at home and no CVS/SVN/tarball.
>> In the meantime, local wireless communities are still de-centralized by
>> his own nature, you know, wLan (L=local) works only in a local
>> environment, therefore, why the people have to be afraid? afraid of 
>> what?
>> The real challenge to scale is the ability to connect those still local
>> networks or consolidate them in something larger, and the turnkeys, the
>> methods and tools that allow this. In the real world, without those
>> "enablers",... just sexy local wLans, never more. We can talk a lot,
>> have tons of code, but do nothing.
>>
>> > So...
>> > There is a very nice second project "AcDc" (which I am proud to be
>> > mentoring at the Google SoC)
>> >
>> > http://www.reseaucitoyen.be/wiki/index.php/AcdcProposal_en
>> >
>> > It is a decentralized p2p DNS & captive portal system with XML beneath
>> > it for describing the configuration.
>> >
>> Interesting. I'm not very familiar en ad hoc networks for the very last
>> mile in urban areas. I do realize that distinct scenarios might have
>> different solutions. That shows that different solutions to different
>> scenarios have to be complementary.
>> To give you an example, an approach of "no node can be more important
>> than another" can be true in a region-scale network like this:
>> http://guifi.net/ca/node/2444/view/map
>> (> than 500 km2, combining small to medium urban areas and rural areas,
>>  > 800 radio devices, some of them having dedicated p2p links (we call
>> them "supernodes"), other simply regular users or repeaters...)
>>
>> BTW, can you provide the real world communities/sample servers to see
>> the apps. you mentioned live?
>>
>> >
>> >> Wireless community is not just about socializing, wifi 
>> state-of-the-art
>> >> technology is a huge challenge and it isn't at the hand of a few
>> >> volunteers. There are never excedent on volunteers.
>> >>
>> >> Major problem I do envision now here is uniformity. Local communities
>> >> are plural and self-centered (they should be, that is the basis). 
>> No way
>> >> to share anything if there are no common practices. So what we can 
>> share?
>> >>
>> >> There have to be a motivation for sharing not only experiences, also
>> >> resources. How many of us are really sharing resources across
>> >> communities? But might be different approaches for solving technology
>> >> problems (i.e. routing, hardware...) so.... what?
>> >>
>> >> What about at least having the ability to syndicate community 
>> networks
>> >> by describing them in XML? So regardless of how you do run a given
>> >> network, you still are able to see others, if someone finds out a 
>> good
>> >> hardware configuration tool solution, by providing your network
>> >> information to it you are just able to take advantage of it without
>> >> disrupting other features that maybe you have and love...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ramon.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> En/na Ken DiPietro ha escrit:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Vickram (et al)
>> >>>
>> >>> I find this thread fascinating from a couple of different 
>> standpoints.
>> >>> First and foremost is the dynamic we are discussing between,
>> >>> government, private business and local communities. I applaud you
>> >>> being able to clearly and concisely explain some of the reasons each
>> >>> component of this structure is not capable of managing this work on
>> >>> it's own.
>> >>>
>> >>> If that is the case, I would suggest that each one of these segments
>> >>> must take responsibility for a piece of the job and this is how I
>> >>> would suggest one possible solution could be implemented.
>> >>>
>> >>> Government -  The national government in partnership with local
>> >>> governments create a training facility to educate a staff of young,
>> >>> resilient workers capable of deploying this equipment even under the
>> >>> most adverse local conditions. Additionally, government either
>> >>> mandates the manufacture of this equipment at a subsidized price or
>> >>> provides tax incentives to make the manufacturers of this equipment
>> >>> eager to produce it. From what I can tell, the government will also
>> >>> have to remove the mountains of red tape that it seems to thrive 
>> on to
>> >>> make this project go forward as well as removing any tariffs that
>> >>> might also add to the cost of this equipment.
>> >>>
>> >>> Business - Private sector must be motivated to build this 
>> equipment. I
>> >>> would suggest that this could be done by using a combination of tax
>> >>> incentives weighed against the threat of allowing the importation of
>> >>> goods should the local businesses not meet the demand in a 
>> reasonable
>> >>> time period. Specifications for interoperability as well as
>> >>> environmental hardening need to be mandated. Another possibility 
>> would
>> >>> be for the government to subsidize the training of qualified 
>> employees
>> >>> to manufacture this equipment.
>> >>>
>> >>> Local communities - This is where the demand is generated. One of 
>> the
>> >>> ways these communities can pay for this connectivity is to supply
>> >>> labor to the manufacturers as well as to the installation staff. 
>> These
>> >>> trained people could return to their communities to keep the network
>> >>> operational after a set period of time and it would be up to the
>> >>> community as well as government to pay for the workers (or a portion
>> >>> of their salary/expenses) during this time.
>> >>>
>> >>> Please note - many of these communities will be able to work 
>> together
>> >>> as this connectivity will be supplied by passing through one 
>> community
>> >>> on the way to delivering to another community further down the line.
>> >>> It will be critical that these groups can work together or the 
>> segment
>> >>> of the network will eventually collapse.
>> >>>
>> >>> I realize this outline is full of holes and is not intended to be a
>> >>> boilerplate for how this project should be rolled out but rather a
>> >>> staring point for discussion.
>> >>>
>> >>> Respectfully,
>> >>>
>> >>> Ken DiPietro
>> >>>
>> >>> New-ISP.net/NextGenCommunications.net
>> >>> Wireless solutions - not concessions.
>> >>> http://www.nextgencommunications.net
>> >>> 1044 National Highway LaVale MD 21502
>> >>> Tel# (301)789-2968 Cell (301)268-1154
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> vvcrishna at radiophony.com wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Quoting Balaji G <balaji_g1947 at yahoo.com>:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> What should these mechanisms be ? I have my doubts on the 
>> scaling of
>> >>>>> community based approaches, but one must develop the area further,
>> >>>>> as well
>> >>>>> as explore other mechanisms.  Hope is in strenghtening the 
>> energies of
>> >>>>> communities as against burdening them with another development 
>> task,
>> >>>>> which
>> >>>>> is easier done by Government and moneyed industry.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Community based approaches, on the contrary, are probably the most
>> >>>> powerful in
>> >>>> terms of scaling. Half the reason that mobile networks in rural 
>> areas
>> >>>> are so
>> >>>> pathetic as that no urban executive wants to go spend months in the
>> >>>> boondocks
>> >>>> wrangling with ticklish local issues of electricity, workers, 
>> spares,
>> >>>> drinking
>> >>>> water, food etc.
>> >>>> That critical problem is erased when the work is 
>> community-driven. But
>> >>>> unfortunately, decades (centuries) of autocratic rule has damped 
>> down
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> desire of most rural Indian groups to do things for themselves, 
>> which
>> >>>> is why
>> >>>> the most genuinely successful ICT projects are in places where a
>> >>>> significant
>> >>>> amount of preparatory work has been done, sometimes for years.
>> >>>> Depressing, perhaps, but no reason to lose hope or abandon this
>> >>>> country's fate
>> >>>> solely to 'big' governments and (essentially greedy) private
>> >>>> businesses to come
>> >>>> to the rescue.
>> >>>> Vickram
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> wsfii-discuss mailing list
>> >>>> wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
>> >>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wsfii-discuss
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> wsfii-discuss mailing list
>> >> wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
>> >> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wsfii-discuss
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > wsfii-discuss mailing list
>> > wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
>> > http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wsfii-discuss
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> wsfii-discuss mailing list
>> wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wsfii-discuss
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wsfii-discuss mailing list
> wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wsfii-discuss
>
>