[wsfii-discuss] Confusion on Hive and Spontaneous Networking.

Thu Jul 13 13:55:25 UTC 2006

En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
> On 13 Jul 06, at 13:49, Ramon Roca wrote:
>
>   
>> mmmm, ok. So yes, I was just introducing confusion by using the name 
>> hive (in the bio-metaphor way, I'm a mid-sixties guy xD) and by simply 
>> underlying "spontaneous networking" will help to better understand the 
>> concept. And spontaneous networking is a new one :)
>> If by hive networking is understood just as some devices which are 
>> capable of changing its firmware and must have a given number of network 
>> interfaces, that definitely doesn't matches very well with what we are 
>> trying to communicate with the SNP.
>>     
>
> maybe i missed something then and I need to know more what you 
> mean by spontaneous networking. what i meant with 2 network 
> interfaces was just condition for any network, technically. what hive 
> is about, as I understand, is to bring together wireless community 
> networking with local content. people have been building wireless 
> community networks for some years now, in some cases very 
> successfully, but ofthen the focus is mainly creating the network as 
> such. the community network is then a sort of access ramp to the 
> global internet. other people wanted to emphasise more the 
> communication within the free wireless infrastructure and this is what 
> hive is about, people providing services for each other with networks 
> which can easily be built on the fly. bt maybe this conversation is 
> starting to bore other people on this list and we should continue in 
> direct communication if we want. to my opinion the correspondence 
> between cultural/social and technical network is always a tricky issue
> cheers
> a.
>   
Ups... or maybe I was who missed something! xD
This definition of hive is much closer of what I was thinking on.
I've no problems with private conversations, but when talking about 
private things. The best way to kill an open discussion is to switch to 
private messages, so I was interested on a discussion list.
My apologies if this is off topic here, I thought that it wasn't.
If there is another list to have this discussion just let me know which 
or we can always create a new one.

Cheers,
Ramon.

>   
>> To refer to a given place where someone wants to startup a local 
>> community and the problematic of vertebrating it, solving the critical 
>> mass problems etc, we still can call it community.
>> For the concept of a single all wi-fi interconnected network at a medium 
>> to large-scale (I mean, larger than a single AP-wLan), I've also heard 
>> the word "Wireless Island"
>>
>> Many thanks to all, I appreciate.
>> Ramon.
>>
>> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
>>     
>>> On 13 Jul 06, at 14:20, Ramon Roca wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> mmm, interesting, I like the concept of "Hivewares" as sensors in 
>>>> Pervasive Computing where are able to easily do certain things, but 
>>>> thinking on this... but well, even an "acme" webcam can broadcast video 
>>>> over ip and does it out-of-the-box. The only difference I can see with a 
>>>> specialized firmware is that could be open-source or more flexible? 
>>>> Can't the acme webcam become part of a hive?
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> if you can re-programme it to do other things and if it has two 
>>> network interfaces, yes.
>>> but let me say something else, the guys who are doing hive networks 
>>> are my friends and I admire their skills and commitment. however, I 
>>> find the name unfortunate. biological metaphors are so mid-nineties. 
>>> then these concepts came out of MIT and such places and there was 
>>> and is a certain ideology connected to it, like: hive networks, where 
>>> science of complexity meets neo-liberalism. only read Out of Control 
>>> by Kevin Kelly to see what I mean. I hope the free community can 
>>> come up with better slogans, better names and not somehow 
>>> replicate what the think tanks of swarm capitalism have already 
>>> proposed
>>> best
>>> Armin
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Anyway, to build the hive, besides of the specialized capability hidding 
>>>> complexity, which is always good, the "hivegadgets" have to publish 
>>>> their capabilities over the network because if not, they are really not 
>>>> available to the network participants or either to other "hivegadgets" 
>>>> if is M2M. In today's world that doesn't occurs so I think that this 
>>>> answer can only come complemented by the appropiate XML interfaces and 
>>>> the Spontaneous Data Hubs and Services... without this I can't imagine a 
>>>> single magic firmware totally autonomous doing all the things unless we 
>>>> reduce the concept of the hive to a single firmware-centric implementation.
>>>>
>>>> I assume that a "hiveware" can also be a mapping server which assembles 
>>>> the hive OpenGIS GML information (http://www.opengis.net/gml/) with a 
>>>> backround map provided by an external public WFS Server ( 
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Feature_Service ) to display the hive 
>>>> over a geography... and that has few relationship with a given firmware...
>>>>
>>>> I'll keep on this way. IMHO rather than being contradictory, I'm  just 
>>>> filling gaps.
>>>>
>>>> Thx for keeping me updated. Just let me know if you think that could be 
>>>> better to stop me of using this terminology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi Ramon,
>>>>>
>>>>> I like the questions which you are addressing, they are important 
>>>>> ones. My thoughts went into a similar direction when I wrote this text 
>>>>> about hive networks about 9 months ago. 
>>>>>
>>>>> http://theoriebild.ung.at/view/Main/HiveNetworks
>>>>>
>>>>> The more critical parts come at the end. there are no 'solutions' or 
>>>>> easy fixes but maybe there are interesting questions and boring 
>>>>> questions to ask. 
>>>>>
>>>>> I took quite some care to make the text accessible to geeks and non-
>>>>> geeks alike. however, technology has once more overtaken the slow 
>>>>> process of reflection. hive networkers have meanwhile began the 
>>>>> switch from Oleg's firmware to OpenWRT which should make it 
>>>>> easier for more developers to join in. A new hive wiki with better 
>>>>> documentation is under development but as far as I know has not yet 
>>>>> been opend for public participation. I will keep you posted
>>>>>
>>>>> best
>>>>> Armin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13 Jul 06, at 10:39, Ramon Roca wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> As I said the other day, I dumped many things which were on my brain, 
>>>>>> taking lessons on our experiences and visions about the Spontaneous 
>>>>>> Networking.
>>>>>> Now is time to think twice on that, discussion, better elaborate some 
>>>>>> concepts. The goal is to make it clear, if not, you know, just more 
>>>>>> smoke on the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please I will appreciate comments on the following. By googling saw 
>>>>>> "hive networks" I've got the impression that some of the people related 
>>>>>> to wsfii (Julian, etc...) have been using this vocabulary earlier. I 
>>>>>> just want to be consistent and not provide more confusion if there are 
>>>>>> already some adopted definitions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real goal must be helping en everyone's projects roadmap, certainly 
>>>>>> at least does in what we're doing at guifi, so help us to evolve the 
>>>>>> concepts we've working on in the last months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sorry, but I saw the expression "hive networking" just two days ago. 
>>>>>> Since that I was thinking on that expression because might help a lot in 
>>>>>> defining some of the concepts we need to describe for vertebrating 
>>>>>> networks. A "hive" could mean something which provides robustness to the 
>>>>>> local communities, solving density and critical mass problems, I mean, 
>>>>>> Spontaneous Networking is not only about scalability, more than this is 
>>>>>> about the ability to supply resources to the new "hives" in order to 
>>>>>> give them more chances for survival when they are in their critical 
>>>>>> path, and as long as they mature and get established, create new paths 
>>>>>> for creating new ones to boost enhance the others. That is a concept, 
>>>>>> and said in this way, very complementary to the spontaneous networking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But by googling "hive networks" I just have discovered that in this case 
>>>>>> is not a new concept and some of you have already worked on this. There 
>>>>>> is also a wiki site hivenetworks.net! But by my first (diagonal) look 
>>>>>> into this, I'm not sure that the term is being used in the same way as 
>>>>>> understanding it. I.e. at hivenetworks.net I've got the impression that 
>>>>>> after talking about a very abstract concept ("hive blobs"), goes 
>>>>>> straight to talk about a very "gadget" oriented things (firmwares, 
>>>>>> packages, etc....). Gadgets for sure are needed, are basic! However I 
>>>>>> don't see what's really new on this, there is just a need to keep going 
>>>>>> on with them and getting better, we might have dozens now and we might 
>>>>>> have hundreds in the future, some could get unsused, new ones might 
>>>>>> appear...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I miss something there. The hive/spontaneous approach have to be 
>>>>>> something else than just describing resources, is also about enabling 
>>>>>> the capabilities to them for spontaneously working together, that is 
>>>>>> building the hive. For sure anything pluggable into an IP network is 
>>>>>> already by definition able to extend something, but by having just that, 
>>>>>> isn't that only about just networking in general? what about solving the 
>>>>>> critical mass problems and building the hives?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments welcome :)
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
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