[wsfii-discuss] Why 5.725-5.850 GHz band is not allowed inEuropean countries

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Hello Mahabir, hi Dave

Good luck Mahabir in your Nepal mission for licence-exempt spectrum access.

Dave provides an excellent checklist in his lengthy reply. The political 
challenge is to conduct spectrum policy reform as a non-zero sum game; to 
build mutualities of interest so that key stakeholders come to agree on the 
case for spectrum reform in the public interest (and commercial, and 
government, etc)-

see this video for Dave's polemic on spectrum politics, which I filmed on a 
visit to Colorado a few years back:
http://johnrichardwilson.googlepages.com/videosdavehughes_wirelesswales

Plus if you are interested there are additional videos on "open spectrum" 
here http://johnrichardwilson.googlepages.com/videos%3Aopenspectrum and a 
case study of licence-exempt use of 2.4GHZ (and subsequently 5.8GHz) 
spectrum in rural Iowa, USA here 
http://johnrichardwilson.googlepages.com/video_wireless_iowa.

I can add some personal testimony and clarification of issues for you:

I was the activist in Wales who set up a project which led to Dave Hughes 
lobbying our government Minister, which in turn led to pressures on central 
UK government for spectrum reform.

I was a member of a number of UK government regulatory working groups (and 
member of report drafting groups) which led to "licence-exempt" use (- 
distinct from the nomenclature of "ISM" bands) of both 2.4 and 5.8 GHz 
spectrum.

5.8 GHz bands get confusing. In the case of the UK there are 3 bands (A,B 
and C). Band C for outside use is that of greatest interest to commercial 
and community players alike. Despite initial terms of reference as 
"licence-exempt" use, the 5.8 Band C spectrum in the UK was eventually 
released as a "Licensed" band (with the accompanying nomenclature "Light 
Licensing").

At the European level, the EU is working towards harmonization in spectrum 
policy with a strong tendency in play for the adoption of both 2.4 and 5.8 
GHz as Licence Exempt bands.

Dave is correct in highlighting military issues regarding reluctance for 
licence-exempt use of bands. Nevertheless, for the record, in the case of UK 
the 5.8 GHz band:

a) this did not initially have restrictive technical parameters (I sat in on 
some of the Technical "Sharing" Sub-Group meetings), but then had DFS and 
TPC parameters applied to reconcile military issues (related to missile 
systems- in this case US missile systems on air bases within the UK), which 
was accepted as a solution by the military (ie was accepted as mitigating 
sharing/interference issues. Though a footnote to this is that there were 
subsequent *real* interference issues so that the technical protocols had to 
be retroactively changed, in both the US and the UK). Also in the US, there 
were similar issues of use of DFS and TPC (though bands A, B and C referred 
to different uses in the UK and US contexts);

and b) it was in fact the television  broadcasters (ENG/OB Electronic News 
Gathering and Outside Broadcast Services) who were the legacy interest that 
delayed the opening of the 5.8GHZ band, and led to the more restrictive 
Licensed (or "Light Licensing") regime (- a priori permission to enter the 
band, registration of terminals, licence-fee, and geographical exclusion 
zones), not because the forthcoming (Motorola and Nokia were the main 
manufacturers pushing for full licence-exempt status) 5.8 GHz band radios 
caused interference but because the broadcasters used older legacy radio kit 
that was inefficient (plus its said that they simply did not want anyone 
else in their legacy band). The "Light Licensing" compromise was in this 
case to appease the broadcasters; and one can say that in practice whilst 
new radio products for 5.8 GHZ have come to market, user-registration has 
not necessarly followed; so that the long term tendancy is towards a full 
licence-exempt regime. But the case highlights the political arithmetic that 
Dave underlines- the key question of "who will be affected - harmed, IN 
THEIR OPINION (whether true or not)". Hence reality became Kafkaesque when 
it was not the expected military bases that were geographical exclusion 
zones, so much as golf-courses and horse racing courses (-traditional 
broadcasting ENG/OB venues).

Onno Perbo (also spelt Purbo) of Indonesia - who I am sure you are familiar 
with - has valuable experience of activist projects and spectrum reform 
(-grassroots activity leading to the forcing of a rules change to allow 
licence-exempt use of 2.4 GHz), which I suggest you might benefit from 
learning about and using as a positive case study to demonstrate to your 
policy-makers.

Mahabir, if you wish to contact me personally (off this list) for further 
discussion you are most welcome to (-and we can conference via skype).

John Wilson
http://openspectrum.org.uk

>From: "Dave Hughes" <dave at oldcolo.com>
>Reply-To: Discuss list on the World Summit on Free Information 
>Infrastructure<wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org>
>To: <mahabir at himanchal.org>
>CC: 'Discuss list on the World Summit on Free Information 
>Infrastructure'<wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org>
>Subject: RE: [wsfii-discuss] Why 5.725-5.850 GHz band is not allowed 
>inEuropean countries?
>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 22:08:55 -0600
>
>I am not completely familiar with European decisions, but I dimly remember,
>when Wales was trying to lobby the UK spectrum authority that there were
>objections from their Defense Department - military use of some of the
>higher frequencies. Military everywhere is nervous about any new use that
>could interfere with their radios and radars.
>
>Dave Hughes
>dave at oldcolo.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mahabir Pun [mailto:mahabir at himanchal.org]
>Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 9:47 PM
>To: Dave Hughes
>Cc: mahabir at himanchal.org; 'Discuss list on the World Summit on Free
>Information Infrastructure'; sylvia at colnodo.apc.org
>Subject: RE: [wsfii-discuss] Why 5.725-5.850 GHz band is not allowed in
>European countries?
>
>Hello Dave;
>
>Thank you very much for the detailed instructions and suggestions. Those
>will be very helpful.
>
>I found that Eurpoean countries are not allowing 5.725-5.850 GHz bands for
>public use. Is it because it creates interferences to other radios or for
>some other reasons?
>
>Friends from the European countries can also explain the freequesncies
>that are allowed there.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Mahabir
>
>
>
> > Mahabir:
> >
> > Well, as one who has spent years extending the benefits of unlicensed
> > wireless, from Mongolia and Wales to Mt Everest and Rural Montana, I've
> > been
> > down this road before.
> >
> > Mahabir does not have as much a  technical or regulatory problem, as a
> > Political Problem.
> >
> >  Almost all '3d World' countries have it also. Nepal is not alone. The 
>US
> > Congress has is having the same problem, believe it or not. For added to
> > the
> > political problem of competing 'special interests'  very few people
> > including government decision makers - can grasp the technical reasons 
>why
> > Unlicensed ISM band communications works, does not have to interfere 
>with
> > any other radios, and that
> >
> > So I will be glad to help Mahabir, but my advice will be far more
> > addressed
> > to the political hurdle, and some ways to deal with it, than technical 
>or
> > jus regulatory.
> >
> > 1.  Start by asking yourself who will be affected - harmed, IN THEIR
> > OPINION
> > (whether true or not) - by making some spectrum unlicensed for use and
> > eliminating or reducing greatly the government 'taxation' on ISM band
> > radios. Let me list a few:
> >           a. The Nepalese Army and Security Services
> >             b. The Nepalese PTT - government owned telephone company
> >             c.  Maoists
> >             d. Airlines, especially in-country local ones.
> >           e.  Commercial or Noncommercial services that already use
> > whether
> > legally or not  USA ISM frequencies  902-928Mhz, 2.4-2.483 Ghz or
> > 5.2-5.8Ghz
> > frequencies.
> >             f.  Cell phone companies and operators in Nepal.
> >           g.  Companies - stores that sell radios using anything in 
>those
> > bands now.
> >             h. Local Nepalese radio broadcast and television operators
> >             i.  The Revenue offices of Nepal (those who have jobs
> > collecting
> > taxes on radios)
> >             j   Whatever government agencies get the revenues from the 
>tax
> > on radios.
> >
> > Now as I said, many of the above would NOT be harmed in the least by
> > permitting the spectrum for Wi-Fi (2.4-2.483ghz) to be unlicensed. But
> > that
> > that makes no political difference. If they THINK they will be affected
> > adversely you have a political problem.
> >
> > One ISM band which is ok in the US 902-928Mhz, is NOT ok in any country
> > with
> > GSM cell phones. I would NOT include those bands in your request. In 
>fact
> > your observation that if you can just get Wi-Fi bands authorized, you
> > would
> > be happy is valid. I would zero in on that band ONLY, and forget the 
>other
> > ones. If you get Nepalese government authorization for that band only, 
>the
> > higher ISM bands, where Wi-Max is, for example will be easier to get,
> > late.
> > In fact you should go after the 2.4-2.438 spectrum slice and NOT call it
> > just Wi-Fi, or get the words Wi-Fi into the changed regulations. Because
> > there are OTHER companies, world wide, like Alvarion, who sells good,
> > powerful, radios in that band but are Proprietary systems. Just ask for
> > that
> > band.
> >
> > 2. All national governments have SOME spectrum regulations. Often they 
>are
> > borrowed from the regulations other countries have. And in some 
>countries
> > there are NO laws or regulations covering some of those frequencies 
>above,
> > especially the higher ones. That's good and that's bad. If it is not
> > regulated, your job is easy. If it is, you may get resistance from some 
>of
> > the above. In MOST cases you need to get your arguments together why 
>Wi-Fi
> > does NOT interfere at the power levels you use in RURAL Nepal. The
> > Katmandu
> > and other dense urban areas may be another story.
> >
> > 3. Find out WHO regulates the spectrum  for the Nepalese Government Find
> > the
> > one low level bureaucrat (I'll bet there are very few) who (a) has the
> > authority and (b) understands radio technically. Wine and dine him, 
>maybe
> > grease his palm. Or give, loan, him a Wi-Fi radio. But politically, make
> > him
> > a Hero if you can. Get him willing to recommend it - as if it is HIS 
>idea
> > -
> > and he won't lose his job. Make him the Expert of Nepal in Wi-Fi 
>spectrum.
> > .
> >
> > 4. Now for the Political Benefits argument.
> >
> > a.	See if you can get at least one Parliament member and Minister as
> > your Champion.
> > b.	Think through all the REAL benefits to Nepal, its ECONOMY, its
> > PEOPLE, its EDUCATION, its MEDICAL (services in remote areas) Benefits.
> > And
> > get vivid examples and testaments from other countries and from inside
> > Nepal
> > itself to use on decision makers AND with the Nepalese press, when they
> > start interviewing you - which they will. Have your sound bites ready, 
>and
> > give them email and telephone contact information for those who can make
> > the
> > same case from their countries. (I will be glad to talk to them -
> > endlessly
> > about the benefits to Nepal, and use my work in Namche among the 
>Sherpa's
> > as
> > an example. If they call voice, I can, via Vonage or Skype, talk their
> > ears
> > off if need be)
> > c.	In ALL the topics below,  think about what Nepal would Like to
> > happen. Its not enough to just say that Nepal will be technologically
> > backwards unless they do it (don't threaten). You need to think, for 
>EACH
> > area, what will Wi-Fi unlicensed communications do POSITIVELY for Nepal.
> > Such as:
> > d.	ECONOMICALLY - a large part of the economy of Nepal is Tourism. Give
> > all the things that Wi-Fi can help bring more trekkers to the remote, 
>but
> > attractive areas of Nepal OTHER than just the Solu Khumbu Mt Everest
> > Corridor. Predict that more and more Tourist/Trekkers will be carrying
> > their
> > OWN Wi-Fi radios inside their laptops, or PDAs. And if they can 'connect
> > up'
> > back home from their sometimes-many week treks, they will being money to
> > some of the poorest villages they pass through, or stay over - which you
> > Mahabir are trying to do in your remote valleys. And of course, as 
>Tsering
> > Sherpa has been doing for years now, he provides a satellite 
>'connection'
> > to
> > the rest of the world from Namche, and did so at Base Camp at Everest,
> > for
> > the climbers and trekkers, journalists, and medical people, and is able 
>to
> > use Wi-Fi Radios to connect up  trekkers who can 'call home' - and pay 
>for
> > the privilege. Don't overlook what it can do (and is doing now) for
> > business, government, in Kathmandu and other urban centers.  Get Dileep
> > Agrawl, owner of Worldlink to help make the case for you (but remember 
>he
> > is
> > using those radios right now for his customers in Kathmandu and has no
> > specific authority to do so I believe. So don't get him in trouble)
> > e.	BUSINESS - Tell them that in Bangladesh a small wireless enterprise
> > has been set up in the countryside. She and her computer is linked to 
>the
> > Internet  several miles away to a city, wirelessly. She offers a service
> > to
> > farmers, who come to her and she get answers for them about their crops
> > from
> > far away experts. They don't use the Internet themselves. She does it 
>for
> > them as an Information Service, charging them a very small fee. She has 
>an
> > income, with just her computer and a wireless connection, the farmers 
>get
> > agricultural answers, an Internet provider in the city gets some income,
> > and
> > everybody wins.
> > f.	And if any very small, business has something to sell of value -
> > products, Nepalese arts or crafts, music, or carvings or religious 
>images,
> > they can sell them over the Internet if they have a low cost connection 
>to
> > the Internet, and be wirelessly connected where there are no wires. They
> > can
> > set up web sites as 'Marketplaces' which can reach the world
> > g.	EDUCATION - I don't have to lecture you on what you have done for
> > schools in your Himanchal area, but broaden the BENEFITS case for ALL
> > education in ALL Nepal. Making it possible for bright kids to learn 
>about
> > the rest of the world and even take lessons from teachers and schools
> > around
> > the world. And schools and universities in Nepal can become better
> > connected
> > to the Internet inside the schools, between schools, and to the outside
> > world and its knowledge. (you will want to set up one of your
> > 'conferences'
> > with Parliament and Ministers WITH a wireless connection to your 
>computer.
> > Get Worldlink's assistance. And be able to SHOW them how you are 
>connected
> > and let them ask you questions to ask Google and instantly get them
> > answers.
> > (put the Nepalese character font on your Windows machine and access
> > Nepalese
> > language sites - there are quite a few)
> > h.	Education - Tell them, as one example, how, Tsering and I, helped by
> > Jim Forster of Cisco Corporation, set up a wireless link 5 miles from 
>the
> > satellite base in Namche to Thame, and a Sherpa in Pittsburg, America,
> > Mingma Sherpa taught them ORAL English over the Internet by Internet 
>voice
> > (VOIP) at a tiny cost. So kids in 10 years old in Thame, whose Nepalese
> > teachers did not know English were able to learn some English, AND
> > technology - (and the teachers were learning at the same time) all 
>because
> > there was a 5 mile wireless connection from Namche to Thame. (now don't
> > forget that the Nepalese government, BECAUSE it owns the Telephone 
>Company
> > (PTT) does not like VOIP. Because they think it takes revenue from them.
> > BUT
> > you should argue that there is NO reason why the Nepal PTT cannot use
> > unlicensed wireless ITSELF, and offer voice telephone services where 
>there
> > ARE no costly telephone lines!)
> > i.	MEDICAL - tell your government that Unlicensed wireless links are
> > being used in Rural America to connect up small clinics, doctors, and
> > hospitals to the Internet. They can send X-Rays, and get vital medical
> > information  from the centers of medical knowledge and other doctors for
> > difficult cases. And the rural doctors and nurses can themselves 
>continue
> > their medical education.
> > j.	PUBLIC SAFETY - Educate them on the ability of wireless connections,
> > even mobile, can help enormously Search and Rescue in the Himalaya
> > mountains. That, as you proved already you can go 60 km or more (line of
> > site, or with relays, solar powered) to summon help. If unlicensed
> > wireless
> > was authorized, every mile of trek from Juri, Lukla, Namche, Tengboche, 
>to
> > Gorek Shep and the Base Camp, could be reached and be connected BY
> > TREKKERS
> > AND THEIR GUIDES themselves, where no voice cell phone towers will ever
> > be.
> > And we are talking about 20-50,000 paying trekkers alone that go up the
> > Solu
> > Khumbu every year, taking risks, and far from conventional 
>communications.
> > k.	Public Welfare - Many places in the world, from remote Alaska to
> > urban centers, governments can MONITOR, with wirelessly connected 
>Sensors
> > and Data Collectors, weather, water, rain, snow, levels, detect
> > avalanches.
> > Because of the wirelessly connected Data Loggers I helped the University
> > of
> > Alaska set up, operating hundreds of miles out of Nome, Alaska, Eskimos
> > can
> > watch the weather and plan their snowmobile trips carefully. The
> > University
> > gets and can broadcast better data and forecasts than the US Weather
> > Service!
> > l.	PEOPLE - with wireless connections, in cites and villages and even
> > remote homes, or one-person wirelessly services connected places where
> > people connect up Nepalese People can connect up to their relatives all
> > over
> > the world - and there are MANY Nepalese who live outside of Nepal. 
>Keeping
> > Connected to their families, and communities is very important to 
>Nepalese
> > people, in my experience. Every village in Nepal could be connected at
> > very
> > low cost (equipment and service). Just as every Sherpa in Namche is able
> > to
> > use Tsering's Cybercafe the past 5 years.
> >
> > These are just a few of the BENEFITS TO NEPAL that unlicensed, even just
> > Wi-Fi level, radios can bring.
> >
> > You have not only to show them the benefits, but ALSO arm yourself  with
> > solid answers AND specific examples of what is NOT a problem - from
> > getting
> > brain cancer from the radio emissions, interference with EXISTING radio
> > based services, (airlines, television, radio, cell phones, police, 
>Army).
> > And make it easy for them to ask 'outside experts' in the same fields, 
>why
> > and where unlicensed communications is NOT a problem for them.
> >
> > Finally, you need to try and show, in Nepalese Rupee terms, how the 
>spread
> > of wireless radios, if it is NOT taxed (either radios or spectrum) will
> > INCREASE REVENUE, not only to businesses, but ALSO to government itself
> > from
> > the economic growth it can encourage. If Nepal gets a reputation for 
>being
> > the most Wireless/Personal Computer mountain nation in the world (so you
> > have to keep the world media informed and make press releases on the
> > entire
> > political campaign) I can assure you you will get more mountain climbing
> > trekker tourists than China-Tibet, Bhutan, or the Himalaya provinces of
> > India!
> >
> >
> >  This is just my first crack at it. Tsering Sherpa has invited me back 
>to
> > Namche, to help cut the ribbon on his new Lodge funded by Yeti Airlines 
>-
> > which wouldn't be there has not he been using, mastering, and
> > imaginatively
> > deploying Wireless (linked to the base of his Satellite IP feed.). Since 
>I
> > may be dropping in for a visit, I would be glad to sit down with you
> > Mahabir
> > and some government officials and help convince them, and give them
> > answers
> > to their (political) problems approving this.
> >
> > Dave Hughes
> > Old Colorado City (very wireless) Communications
> > dave at oldcolo.com
> > http://linkingeverest.com
> >
> > Dave Hughes
> > dave at oldcolo.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wsfii-discuss-bounces at lists.okfn.org
> > [mailto:wsfii-discuss-bounces at lists.okfn.org] On Behalf Of Mahabir Pun
> > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 5:03 AM
> > To: sylvia at colnodo.apc.org; Discuss list on the World Summit on Free
> > Information Infrastructure
> > Cc: wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
> > Subject: [wsfii-discuss] I need information on ISM Bands
> >
> > Hello All;
> >
> > I am in Kathmandu now for more than a week. My mission is to make ISM 
>band
> > license free in Nepal. I want to make at least Wi-fi technolgy license
> > free to import and use in Nepal.
> >
> > Could you please let me know the names of the countries where they don't
> > require license to use ISM bands? It will be helpful if you tell me the
> > reasons as why some countries require to use it and why others don't? 
>Any
> > information on this
> > area will be useful.
> >
> > The reason is that the government of Nepal now requires license to 
>import
> > Wi-fi radios and other radios using ISM bands. They also charge a 
>license
> > fee of about US$85 per year per radio on the top of duties, and taxes.
> > Moreover, there are several places the importers need to bribe money to
> > the government officers. Therefore the ISM band radios cost more than 
>five
> > times by the time it get to the customers.
> >
> > So far I organized a seminar and gave presentation the a group of the
> > Members of Parliament. I invited the government minister, political
> > leaders, high level government officers in the seminar and presented 
>about
> > Nepal Wireless Networking Project. We had a group discussion after that.
> >
> > Then I gave one-hour long presentation to a group of 15 Members of
> > Parliament, who are the members of a committee called "Development
> > Committe". I told them about my network and asked them to bring new laws
> > for the advancement of Information Technology in Nepal. I clearly told
> > them that if they don't bring liberal ICT policies, they will be
> > responsible to take Nepal back to 20th century. Now I am talking to
> > several other peoples related to ICT area.
> >
> > Any information provided by you will be helpful for me to lobbying.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Mahabir Pun
> >
> > --
> > Please visit our school and village at http://www.himanchal.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message has been scanned for viruses and
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> > believed to be clean.
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>Please visit our school and village at http://www.himanchal.org
>
>
>--
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>
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>
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