[wsfii-discuss] Re: [india-gii] Need an example of a democratic , decentralized community based ICT in rural India

Wed Jan 10 20:38:43 UTC 2007

Hi

Am not sure where this conversation is going - but will have a crack at
it once again.

Ashish Saboo wrote:
> ramnarayan.k wrote:
> 
> This conversation is part of apiap.org  . Make you & all aware  of these
> micro entrepreneurs contribution to their neighbourhood.
> 

Thats right micro entrepreneurs they are - not community centres. All
micro entrepreneurs contribute to society - as service sellers /
resellers so whats new

>> Am assuming that your analysis is based on a real rural area
>>  
>>
> Now what is real Rural  area & not so real rural area .  please define,
> may be I can help further.  
> 
Why not visit rural areas in  Bihar , or MP or Chattisgarh, or Orissa
or, Uttarakhand or West Bengal travel a couple of days away from the
capitals, away from any National highway. And spend some years living
there that might make a difference.

>>
> It  got to define what do you mena by community .  From 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community , I gather : " The word
> /community/ comes from the Latin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin>
> /communis,/  It
> perfectly fits this definition .  
> 
Lets get something very clear with the internet and google you could end
up defining words in many ways
so this defining business can continue for ever.

But *what is your understanding of "community"*

and what is it that other definitions say to other says:
The Compact Oxford English Dictionary

community

  • noun (pl. communities) 1 a group of people living together in one
place. 2 (the community) the people of an area or country considered
collectively; society. 3 a group of people with a common religion, race,
or profession: the scientific community. 4 *the holding of certain
attitudes and interests in common.* 5 *a group of interdependent* plants
or animals growing or *living together* or occupying a specified habitat.

the www.freedictionary.com
com·mu·ni·ty Pronunciation (k-myn-t)
n. pl. com·mu·ni·ties
1.
a. A group of people living in the same locality and under the same
government.
b. The district or locality in which such a group lives.
2.
a. A group of people having common interests: the scientific community;
the international business community.
b. A group viewed as forming a distinct segment of society: the gay
community; the community of color.
3.
a. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
b. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.
4. Society as a whole; the public.

and (snipped)
1.community - a group of people living in a particular local area;
3.	community - common ownership;
6.	community - agreement as to goals;

> Ashish Saboo wrote:
>meaning "common, public, shared by all or many .... " Computers are damm costly hence they
> are shared at such places
> in return for the access time the operator is compensated .

*Shared by all* - what is shared by all - it could also mean owned by
all.   (or may be thats not common thats uncommon ) Used by all and
owned by one is not community - theres a better word for it monopoly (by
chance have you read the EULA of MS Microsoft Outlook that you use. You
are only a user not an owner, ) You are neither the owner nor in control
of the resource. Microsoft owns that software and controls how you may
use it.

Precisely in the same way there is a difference between a community
owning and running a resource and just being a user.

> Ashish Saboo wrote:
> Oh yes you  you can add starbucks , Cafe Coffee day in India.  but there
> is a slight difference, Most of the people  in here got to know  about
> the Interent for the first time from a Internet Cafe.  

A. I am not talking about internet cafes per se but about the notion
that cyber cafes in rural areas should be considered community centres.
Which makes me want to ask - do you consider you colony cyber cafe a
community centre.

> Ashish Saboo wrote:
> not every one can
> afford to be at intelligent to go to  IITs 

Are you sure ?? afford to be intelligent ??

> Ashish Saboo wrote:
> or moneyed to enrol in  NIITs
> . The Internet Cafe operator just to run his busienss & get people to
> Internet donn the hat of the teacher. 

Whose disputing what services he offers - it still does not qualify to
be a community centre - a rural marketing agency yes , a distribution
network yes

> Ashish Saboo wrote:
> IMRB , a market research agency
> puts over 45% of  Indian netizens  depend on Internet Cafes in India.
> 

45 % people visit internet cafes - the other 55% don't visit cafes so.
So the other 55% are not community they are selfish individuals who
don't hang out at the nearby "community centre".

Whose disputing that cyber cafes are not providing some service, but
does that (ad nauseum) qualify them to be community centres

>> ramnarayan wrote:
>> a. people who can pay b. people who have the time to hang out
>> there - aka unemployed youth and hardworking men who need to drink up
>> all their earnings. These community centres that you refer to by their
>> nature exclude women (young and old) children - who can't pay, old folks
>> who want to hang out with their grandchildren, government agencies etc.
>>  
>>
> Ashish Saboo wrote:
> You are presumtious, or you have just visited the wrong  places.

Not presumptious but realistic - community centres go by many names and
faces - maybe an internet cafe serves as one - but thats not the end all
and be all - Just because an internet cafe is a focal point does not
mean its the panacea for all ills that plague society.

>> ramnarayan wrote:
>> I have the greatest respect for these individual entreprenuers - who are
>> breaking  new ground - but have you visited a sampling of such centres -
>> small, dingy, unventilated
> Yes  whatever the communtiy & the business can afford ,they  serve it .
> after all the hardships if they still create a demand  & are self
> sustainable , isin't it laudatory.?
> 
>> with isolation techniques (to allow various
>> shady activities to be done in peace). Not the definition of a
>> "community centre".
>>  
>>
> Ashish Saboo wrote:
> You could have been saved by lot of hardships if you had been more
> clear  in what you were expecting.  best wishes if you get better examples.
> 
Its Quite clear that the concept of community centres does not go well
with the concept of profit

What I was expecting was something that is probably bit beyond your
understanding, neverthless can't say we both did not try

>> There seems to be this taking over of what "community based" means - one
>> entrepreneur providing a host of servics to a community which has no
>> easy alternative is *not a community centre*. There is no community
>> there is only profit.
>>  
>>
> Peter Druker  said "There is no such thing as 'profit' there are only
> 'costs'"  .
> 
Sure I guess all the money Microsoft made by selling you their products
is Costs - it must cost them a hellava lot to keep all those proprietory
billions ,

but since you are nit picking about definitions here are some more:

www.freedictionary.com

prof·it Pronunciation (prft)
n.
1. An advantageous gain or return; benefit.
2. The return received on a business undertaking after all operating
expenses have been met.
3.
a. The return received on an investment after all charges have been
paid. Often used in the plural.
b. The rate of increase in the net worth of a business enterprise in a
given accounting period.
c. Income received from investments or property.
d. The amount received for a commodity or service in excess of the
original cost.

>> Ashish Saboo wrote:
>> Why does anyone need a network ?? let everything be stand alone
>> oh for our island republics.
>>
>> So Why would there be a need for "Association of Public ICT Tools Access
>> Provider"
>>  
>>
> Just to educate people like you , Well I am  doing a miserable job :(

maybe you need to revise the goals of whatever its that you do and
redefine your self as a. we are not a community and b. we are not a
network but c. we still seek to serve people

>> Ashish Saboo wrote:
> 60% of Mumbai's population & in varing measure in all urban pockets in
> emerging countries live in slum where conditions are worse than the
> rural area. For these poor migrants its a double wammy.  Cut this rural/
> urban bias & look more holistically .  where ever the localaes are
> compfortable/ adaptible with the level of technology it naturally
> creates demand. 

So the cyber cafes in the slum areas are community centres, voila all
our problems are solved - fund these community centres oops sorry cyber
cafes and they will do everything.

> Ashish Saboo wrote:
>Community Radio is a  far bigger opportunity but
> unfortunately until recently they were not permitted.

and now the cyber cafes will make use of this opportunity and become
radio cafes - and since its community radio - the community pays to
listen i suppose.

> Ashish Saboo wrote:

> Here I agree with you completely,  attracting with a technology which
> will remain just unaffordabel has been a selfserving job of monoliths,
> hope someone else will see an opportunity & save making  criminals.  I
> am sure soem day this Robinhood economics will stop.
>
You could make a start by changing the software that apiap. uses and
maybe even stop the blatant advertisement of MS office and instead of
talking about identifying genuine Microsoft Products focus on alternatives

http://www.apiap.org/taxonomy/term/61
Software
Identifying Genuine Microsoft Windows
*Tips to identify a Genuine Microsoft Windows operating System License*:

or

Template for recording details of visitors
http://www.apiap.org/resources/template-for-recording-details-of-visitors
"Here is a sample to maintain records of customers visiting your centre.

Just save the *MS-Excel sheet* as a template. A print it afresh."

best wishes

ram