[wsfii-discuss] [Office] Pre-alert situation in Argentina, please help & advice
NicoEchániz
nicoechaniz at altermundi.net
Wed Nov 28 01:03:56 UTC 2012
Hi all,
I wanted to let you know that the CNC has not shown up today, so we have
no news on that front yet.
Anyway, we have been able to contact the technicians in charge of this
Telecom link and will try to solve the issue with them directly.
If all goes well, once the threat is over, we intend to build upon this
incident to raise attention on the problems with argentine regulation
regarding the ICM bands, which leads to an unfriendly environment for
the development of community networks.
In this regard I'd like to make a comparison with other countries'
regulations. Is there some comprehensive database on this matter?
I hope to have some good news in the near future :)
cheers,
NicoEchániz
On 11/27/2012 03:25 AM, roland wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have been reading closely what is going on in Argentina with Ramon
> wireless network and my opinion would be to keep this story for now on
> the forum and cooperate with authorities during the investigation.
> Jim, I think getting it out to the general public via news papers may
> cause more harm than helping at this point of time as the decision of
> shutting the network down or equipment confiscation has not been taken yet.
>
> For now I think it's still time to demonstrate to the authorities that
> you got enough "official" information on the regulation showing that
> your wifi equipments are good to operate in Argentina is the good way to
> go for now.
>
> You may put on some political pressure by releasing the information out
> to the media only when you understand there is nothing else to do to
> stop them turning-off your network.
>
> We experienced similar behavior in Cameroon (Africa) and we realized
> that the government authorities that was sent did not really know the
> latest about regulation and that they were pushed by competitors to come
> and disrupt our WIFI network.
>
> That all I can suggest for now but keep updating us in case we get more
> valuable information.
>
> Thank your
> Roland Mfondoum
>
> --- On *Mon, 11/26/12, NicoEchániz /<nicoechaniz at altermundi.net>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: NicoEchániz <nicoechaniz at altermundi.net>
> Subject: Re: [wsfii-discuss] [Office] Pre-alert situation in
> Argentina, please help & advice
> To: "Discuss list on the World Summit on Free Information
> Infrastructure" <wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org>
> Cc: "'juridic guifi'" <juridic at guifi.net>, office at openspectrum.eu,
> redsos3 at list.fcforum.net, "Vic Hayes" <v.hayes at hccnet.nl>
> Date: Monday, November 26, 2012, 8:15 PM
>
> Thank you all very much for the support, contacts and ideas!
>
> I want to make clear two things from Ramon's first e-mail:
> 1) the interference is not to a mobile service but to a land phone
> service. They use this wireless link to connect our town to another.
> 2) also the company is not related to Telefonica, it is Telecom, which
> is their "competitor".
>
> Just so we have the facts right, although it does not change the
> substance of the problem.
>
> I'll be in touch tomorrow to let you know how this goes.
>
>
> cheers,
> NicoEchániz
>
>
> On 11/26/2012 08:52 PM, Jim Forster wrote:
> > Ramon, Vic, Nico,
> >
> > I've seen similar things done in South Africa. I can't say I
> understand the cause, but what might help is get the issue, as
> documented in this thread, up on some web sites. Then contact some
> local newspaper and a national newspaper. Then go back to the
> officials, and inform them that the matter has come to the attention
> of some world bodies. Not that WSFII has any clout whatsover, but
> bureaucrats generally don't like controversy. When it was just an
> issue raised by some regional official in (pardon me) a corner of
> the world, then some people will do whatever they can get away
> with. But when others in the capital become aware that it may get
> some negative publicity on them, or their minister, then they may
> choose a different approach.
> >
> > -- Jim
> >
> > On Nov 26, 2012, at 2:18 PM, Ramon Roca wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks all for your comments. That's really a privilege.
> >>
> >> Although not being an expert on spectrum like some of you,
> neither on the status of the regulations in Argentina, by double
> thinking on this affair I'm just getting into the conclusion that
> spectrum interference shouldn't be an issue at all that can't be
> properly addressed while in cooperation and very basic best
> practices. In particular in this case, where this network is serving
> low-income neighborhood and a school, and in the 21th century, that
> needs to happen yes or yes. Anything else, despite of regulation,
> would be simply a lack of common sense.
> >>
> >> My biggest concern is that if at the behind this issues, there
> are attempts for intimidate. So I want to give +1 to Vic comment to
> Nico on keeping the good work, recommend for being reasonably
> cooperative all the time. Anything else will just encourage tactics
> for intimidation.
> >>
> >> Nico, tell us what happens tomorrow,
> >>
> >> R.
> >>
> >> Al 26/11/12 17:47, En/na Vic Hayes ha escrit:
> >>> Hi NicoEchániz,
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately the 2.4 GHz assignment is at the lowest level in
> the pecking
> >>> order in the spectrum coop.
> >>>
> >>> It is called that we can run on a "non-interference,
> non-protection" basis.
> >>> That means that any service allocated in the band can ask to
> shut you down
> >>> when they receive interference from you, and that our devices
> are not
> >>> protected when we receive interference.
> >>>
> >>> In the 5150-5250 MHz, 5250-5350 MHz and 5270-5725 MHz we are
> having a
> >>> co-Primary status. We are there as the lowest Primary service
> and need to
> >>> give priority to higher Primary services. However, there are
> rules to
> >>> minimize interference to them in the 2 lower bands. In the
> higher band we
> >>> need to have special means to detect radar equipment, both
> static at start
> >>> of day as well as dynamic during the day. But that should be
> available by
> >>> the equipment that has received a class approval. The rules have
> been set by
> >>> the World Radio Conference 2003. Because it is a treaty
> organization, all
> >>> countries are obliged to implement the rules. For instance, the
> US has
> >>> published the order in
> >>> http://acbcert.com/documents/misc-docs/fcc-03-287a1-UNII-Changes.pdf
> >>>
> >>> The only issue is that licensing is a national attribute and
> cannot be
> >>> prescribed by the ITU or the WRC.
> >>>
> >>> Regarding the "homologation": Refer to the two attached
> documents regarding
> >>> recognition of each other's approval. And see if you could find
> whether
> >>> Argentina made an agreement with the US. If not you could still
> work on
> >>> their consciousness that most of the world recognize each
> other's approvals.
> >>> All equipment have the code of the US approval on them.
> >>>
> >>> So in conclusion,
> >>> - see whether the equipment carries the US approval and convince
> CNC to
> >>> recognize the US approval in the spirit of mutual recognition of
> approvals;
> >>> - Do not accept confiscation, shutting down is as far as they
> can go as far
> >>> as I know;
> >>> - Find out (and tell us) if Argentina has regulation in place
> regarding
> >>> Resolution WRC03-229 (attached) and find out whether they have
> allocated
> >>> under class-license or license-exempt regimes.
> >>>
> >>> Keep up the good work, let us know when you need more ammunition
> and please
> >>> give feedback.
> >>>
> >>> Vic
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: NicoEchániz [mailto:nicoechaniz at altermundi.net
> </mc/compose?to=nicoechaniz at altermundi.net>]
> >>> Sent: maandag 26 november 2012 16:22
> >>> To: Vic Hayes
> >>> Cc: 'Ramon Roca'; wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
> </mc/compose?to=wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org>;
> office at openspectrum.eu </mc/compose?to=office at openspectrum.eu>;
> >>> 'juridic guifi'; redsos3 at list.fcforum.net
> </mc/compose?to=redsos3 at list.fcforum.net>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Office] Pre-alert situation in Argentina, please
> help & advice
> >>>
> >>> On 11/26/2012 10:28 AM, Vic Hayes wrote:
> >>>> Hi Ramon and Nicolas,
> >>>>
> >>>> Please look at Bob Horvitz website at
> >>>> http://www.volny.cz/horvitz/os-info/argentina.html
> >>>>
> >>>> The regulations seem favorable, even to the maximum of 4 W e.i.r.p!
> >>>> Here is the English translation of the relevant resolution:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Resolution No. 213/2004 was published in the Official Journal of
> >>>> Argentina on September 27th, 2004. This resolution Allows the
> use of
> >>>> 802.11g devices in Argentina for private (all the territory) and
> >>>> public (restricted to some
> >>>> areas) use. Besides, some technical conditions have been set,
> Such as
> >>>> maximum EIRP limited to 4 W. " (Approval News, December 2004,
> Center
> >>>> for Communications Technology, Spain)
> >>>
> >>> Vic, thanks for the link. I've been re-reading the original text of
> >>> Resolution 213/2004 [1] and although it allows for the private
> use of these
> >>> technologies in the 2.4Ghz band:
> >>>
> >>> Art. 5 - Private use of the systems described in Article 1 will
> also be
> >>> allowed in the national territory.
> >>>
> >>> The problem is with article 7:
> >>>
> >>> Art. 7° — Radioelectric systems authorization [...] will be
> subject to the
> >>> presentation of descriptive information on every traffic
> concentration
> >>> station [...]
> >>>
> >>> which in fact gives the CNC the power to declare illegal almost
> any wireless
> >>> router whenever they see fit. This information presentation is
> the key
> >>> problem because the hardware used must be approved by the CNC
> itself and
> >>> their list of approved hardware is always outdated in relation
> to what's
> >>> available on the market. To make it worse, only those who
> produce or import
> >>> the hardware are entitled to "homologation" (get new hardware
> approved).
> >>>
> >>> So... in the letter it would seem that the use of the 2.4Ghz
> band is quite
> >>> permissive but in reality it's not and almost every wifi router
> installed in
> >>> Argentina can be considered to be violating these regulations,
> thus making
> >>> it's enforcement completely arbitrary.
> >>>
> >>> I'll keep in touch with Ramón and let you all know of any news
> on this
> >>> matter. Thanks for the support :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> NicoEchániz
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> http://www.copitec.org.ar/revista/doc_download/509-resolucion-nd-2132004
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> So long,
> >>>>
> >>>> Vic
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: office-bounces at openspectrum.eu
> </mc/compose?to=office-bounces at openspectrum.eu>
> >>>> [mailto:office-bounces at openspectrum.eu
> </mc/compose?to=office-bounces at openspectrum.eu>]
> >>>> On Behalf Of Vic Hayes
> >>>> Sent: maandag 26 november 2012 11:57
> >>>> To: 'Ramon Roca'; wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
> </mc/compose?to=wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org>;
> >>>> office at openspectrum.eu </mc/compose?to=office at openspectrum.eu>;
> 'juridic guifi'; redsos3 at list.fcforum.net
> </mc/compose?to=redsos3 at list.fcforum.net>
> >>>> Cc: 'Nicolas Echaniz'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Office] Pre-alert situation in Argentina, please
> help &
> >>>> advice
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello Ramon,
> >>>>
> >>>> I have contacted a Profesor at the Univesidad de SanAndrés who
> may be
> >>>> familiar with the Argentinian regulations.
> >>>>
> >>>> The only problem seems to be that the point-to-point service of the
> >>>> telephone people have been officially allocated in the 2.4 GHz
> band.
> >>>>
> >>>> Depending on the response I will take the next step.
> >>>>
> >>>> Kind regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Vic
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: office-bounces at openspectrum.eu
> </mc/compose?to=office-bounces at openspectrum.eu>
> >>>> [mailto:office-bounces at openspectrum.eu
> </mc/compose?to=office-bounces at openspectrum.eu>]
> >>>> On Behalf Of Ramon Roca
> >>>> Sent: zondag 25 november 2012 17:43
> >>>> To: wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
> </mc/compose?to=wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org>;
> office at openspectrum.eu </mc/compose?to=office at openspectrum.eu>; juridic
> >>>> guifi; redsos3 at list.fcforum.net
> </mc/compose?to=redsos3 at list.fcforum.net>
> >>>> Cc: Nicolas Echaniz
> >>>> Subject: [Office] Pre-alert situation in Argentina, please help &
> >>>> advice
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry for cross-posting, and in English for a wider audience.
> >>>>
> >>>> Last friday, colleagues from a community wireless which is
> cooperating
> >>>> with us in a small village in Argentina got a visit from
> >>>> representatives of the CNC (Comisión Nacional de las
> Comunicaciones).
> >>>> Seems that the inspection was caused by a claim from Telecom, a
> local
> >>>> mobile operator affiliated to Movistar (Telefonica), arguing
> that was
> >>> interfering to their backbone links.
> >>>> The inspected nodes are actually composed by low cost wifi routers,
> >>>> working al 2.4 band, using the Argentinian regulatory domain,
> which is
> >>>> region 2 of the UIT (same as in the US), with a power between
> 50mW and
> >>>> 100mW and serving Internet to a primary school, and some
> families in a
> >>>> low-income neighborhood.
> >>>>
> >>>> Our colleagues are very much concerned because of the lack of
> >>>> regulations in Argentina. Looks like those CNC officials will come
> >>>> back next Thursday asking for shutting down the nodes, or even
> >>> confiscation of the equipment.
> >>>> Although wifi equipment has been widely extended in Argentina, the
> >>>> concern is that looks like there are some old regulations which
> >>>> require discretionary legalization for any radio equipment, and CNC
> >>>> can invoke those regulations for this purpose.
> >>>>
> >>>> That's why IMHO we are facing a pre-alert situation in
> Argentina that
> >>>> requires to stay tuned on how evolves.
> >>>>
> >>>> My first impression is that this kind of equipment and and this
> band
> >>>> is very unlikely the cause for any disturbance for mobile
> operators,
> >>>> therefore my first advice to them has been to cooperate with the
> >>>> authorities for any technical assessments on site related to the
> >>>> spectrum analysis, with the hope that the story will finish here.
> >>>>
> >>>> But in the meantime and just in case:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Please stay tuned in what happens next Thursday. In case of the
> >>>> network being forced for shutdown or being confiscated, we
> plan to
> >>>> release a press note reporting those facts, which we
> believe that
> >>>> might be a serious injury of fundamental rights from
> citizens from
> >>>> governments and large-corporations, so we will ask for you
> >>>> cooperation disseminating though blogs and social networks
> worldwide.
> >>>> 2. Does anybody know from a local legal contact from Argentina
> who may
> >>>> assist this wireless community? If someone has a contact,
> please let
> >>>> me know.
> >>>> 3. Any other advice/idea?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Ramon.
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