[open-government] UK Government transparency update (and democracy?)
David Eaves
david at eaves.ca
Sun Dec 12 02:00:23 UTC 2010
My feeling and thinking on this subject is most closely aligned with
Roy, so feeling no need to repeat.
I'm even okay if there are open data advocates who don't care about
democracy. I don't need everyone in the movement to think the same way I
do. MY own feeling is that open data and transparency (within limits)
will enhance democracy so even if they (or business interests) aren't
motivated by this, they will nonetheless be helping advance democracy.
Outcomes matter more than motivation. Of course, if these people were
planning on using open data to enslave people or champion
anti-democratic outcomes I might be more concerned.
At this point however, the conversation has really gotten unhelpfully
abstract. Paola, it would be really helpful to see the snippets of text
that you are referring to. I think this is an important subject but
without the reference point I feel like we are having a conversation
about people I don't know, who said things that I'm hearing second hand.
Hope this is helpful!
cheers,
dave
On 10-12-10 1:19 PM, Roy Peled wrote:
> I realize some people are in it for the business benefits it might
> generate, but I give them the credit of realizing its democratic
> implications. That's why I am less alarmed. As I said, it might not be
> their *main* concern, but I see not how it contradicts. They might not
> be the ones pushing for more meaningful post-release obligations,
> visualization, education, etc... but not everybody has to do
> everything. The question is would they damage the open-data efforts
> somehow. I can see how that can happen, but think it is highly
> unlikely. It would just be too transparent...
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:15 PM, Andrew Ecclestone
> <andrew at ecclestone.net <mailto:andrew at ecclestone.net>> wrote:
>
> Because it's entirely possible to advocate for open access to
> government held datasets so that your commercial enterprise (or
> future commercial enterprise) can be (a) viable and/or (b) more
> profitable. You don't have to believe in democracy, or that
> enabling greater access to government held datasets will
> facilitate greater participation or accountability. You could
> quite easily believe in a minimalist vision of the state which
> merely regulates (with a light touch, of course) the provision of
> services by competing private enterprises.
>
> Let's be clear that EU moves on re-use were stimulated by envy of
> the size of the information economy in the US, not because they
> had some great vision for enhanced public participation in the
> formulation of policy.
>
> 'Give us the Ordnance Survey digital mastermap' is about reducing
> the cost of inputs to boost profitability (with the idea that
> taxation of corporate profits will more than compensate for lost
> sales revenue that funded OS's data gathering); the fact that
> liberalising access to digital maps also enables FixMyStreet is
> beneficial externality.
>
> At least, that's how I understand some of Paola's concerns. Since
> I wasn't at the OGDCamp, I can't speak about control of the agenda
> etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On 11 Dec 2010, at 9:31 AM, Roy Peled wrote:
>
> Sorry guys, Im having a hard time understanding this post. Paola,
> can you please elaborate what it is exactly that you found
> disturbing. I myself cannot see how someonw can work to promote
> open-data and not see its implications in terms of accountability
> and democratic participation. It might be that he/she are in it
> for other reasons and the democratic aspect is not their *main*
> concern, so be it. But I can't see how they can be hostile to the
> idea of democracy, as if so - why release data to the demos?
>
> So please try to explain what it is exactly that you heard or read
> that bothered you so we can better understand where the problem is
> if at all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Roy
>
> 2010/12/10 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio at gmail.com
> <mailto:paola.dimaio at gmail.com>>
>
> Hi Dave!
>
> thanks for reply
>
>
> I actually think most people in the open government
> movement see open data and open government as reinforcing
> democracy... indeed, for many I think democracy is a
> presumed precondition for greater transparency
>
>
> Of course, this is what I also thought, that's my point.
>
> But based on conversations and email exchanges ( may send you
> a snip) some people who are riding the open government data
> wave do not believe in democracy at all, or rather, they
> believe its a 'nice idea that does not work'. Not only they
> avoid the subject, they avoid answering questions, expliciTly
> state that they do not have to be accountable to anyone, make
> it plain that democracy is not part of their ethos.
>
> Thats what put me on the alert a bit.
>
> Perhaps we should organise a panel at the next OGDCamp - or
> other related events, (an open panel) to dig a bit deeper into
> various interesting aspects of the relationship between open
> data and democracy.
>
> I am particulary interested in exploring ' what mechanisms
> can monitor the uptake of democratic processes in relation to
> open government data initiatives' , that is, how do we know ,
> for example, that everyone gets the chance to show their work,
> and inclusion in the open government agenda is not engineered
> and orchestrated by an elite who decides who gets a slot to
> speak, and who does not?
>
> A lot can be inferred by the organisational processes in
> place, and what arterfacts are used to share information and
> decision making (is a wiki actually open to all and used for
> planning? or is the wiki just used as a facade to show what
> someone behind the scene may have planned?)
>
> Look forward to explore the topic further
>
>
> PDM
>
>
> . Moreover, the fact that TBL and others talk so much
> about the need for data journalists is a recognition that
> the data being liberated in of itself is not enough, we
> need a way to ensure that it gets into the regular
> discourse and empowers citizens of all stripes.
>
> I'd love to see the clips/references you refer to as I
> really didn't get the same vibe out of OGDcamp at all -
> quite the opposite, really felt like most of the people in
> the room see themselves as advocates of democratic values.
>
> cheers,
> dave eaves
>
>
> On 10-12-09 12:17 PM, Luigi Selmi wrote:
>> Hi Paola,
>> I was at the OGDCamp in London but don't think to be the
>> one that gave you a card since I do not have cards. It is
>> true that the term 'democracy' doesn't come up very often
>> when talking about transparency. Maybe it is because
>> there are a lot of people that comes from governments and
>> institutions that are more interested in the functioning
>> of the current practices and do not pay attention to what
>> happen outside, to all the events that send us signs of a
>> crisis of the representative democracy. I live in Italy
>> and we have been experimenting for more than 16 years all
>> the issues about that. The last of these days is the of
>> deputies' votes shopping to support the current
>> government. We are at the far edge of the representative
>> democracy crisis but also in the US and other western
>> countries there are a lot of issues that come up every
>> time and cannot be solved within the current model of
>> democracy. We need transparency because we need the
>> knowledge to intervene every day not just to chose
>> someone to go in the parliament.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>>
>> Luigi Selmi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 17:51:17 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [open-government] UK Government transparency
>> update (and democracy?)
>> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com <mailto:paola.dimaio at gmail.com>
>> To: selmi_luigi at hotmail.com <mailto:selmi_luigi at hotmail.com>
>> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>> <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
>>
>> Luigi
>>
>> I obviously agree with you, and became terrified when I
>> found out that democracy, according to some working in
>> the OGDCamp, is just an optional
>>
>> (will send you a copy of the relevant snippets of email
>> exchanges separately, if you are interested)
>>
>> What some of us defend and uphold by default -
>> democratic principles and civil liberties as the
>> foundation for good governance, including self-governance
>> - does not always seem to be reflected in the philosophy
>> of current open government initiatives - quite the
>> contrary, to my worry.
>>
>> Democracy should never be taken for granted, but
>> unfortunately self organisation is sometimes used as an
>> excuse to justify the chaos where great inequalities,
>> deliberate omissions and lack of democratic processes
>> become hidden and take place without anyone noticing.
>>
>> Until we no longer can tell who is running the show,
>> using what rules of the game.
>>
>> Perhaps at the next Camp we should propose this topic for
>> discussion, and find a way to demand that the agenda is
>> managed transparently and fairly.
>>
>> I will analyse the ODGCamp corpus when its published to
>> see if we find any instances of the word democracy that I
>> may have missed on the day
>>
>> PDM
>>
>> (are you the Luigi who gave me his card? i am still going
>> thru my notes, will catch up soon)
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Luigi Selmi
>> <selmi_luigi at hotmail.com
>> <mailto:selmi_luigi at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> If 'transparency of information' is not related to
>> democracy I wonder why bother about it ? Open data
>> and open government are steps towards a new kind of
>> democracy, more partecipatory, something that goes
>> beyond the representative democracy without falling
>> into populism and plebiscitaniarism.
>>
>>
>> Luigi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:09:17 +0000
>> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
>> <mailto:paola.dimaio at gmail.com>
>> To: javier at openrightsgroup.org
>> <mailto:javier at openrightsgroup.org>
>> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>> <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
>> Subject: [open-government] UK Government transparency
>> update (and democracy?)
>>
>>
>> Javier
>>
>> thanks for the update
>>
>> one the words that I have not seen come up much at
>> the OGCAMP
>> is 'democracy', in fact some people cringed when I
>> dared mention it
>>
>> Some 'activists' seem to take the view that
>> 'democratic process' is not that much related
>> to 'trasparency of information'
>>
>> Let us know when you hear of something in that respect
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> PDM
>>
>>
>>
>> 2010/12/7 Javier Ruiz Diaz
>> <javier at openrightsgroup.org
>> <mailto:javier at openrightsgroup.org>>
>>
>> Dear all
>>
>> It seems they were listening during the OGD camp.
>>
>> http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-cabinet-office/plans-performance/transparency-privacy-data.aspx
>>
>> Tentatively good news, lets see the details in
>> the next few days.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> open-government mailing list
>> open-government at lists.okfn.org
>> <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> open-government mailing list
>> open-government at lists.okfn.org
>> <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> open-government mailing list
>> open-government at lists.okfn.org <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
>
> _______________________________________________
> open-government mailing list
> open-government at lists.okfn.org
> <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> open-government mailing list
> open-government at lists.okfn.org
> <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> open-government mailing list
> open-government at lists.okfn.org <mailto:open-government at lists.okfn.org>
> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> open-government mailing list
> open-government at lists.okfn.org
> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/open-government/attachments/20101211/4df1eda5/attachment-0002.html>
More information about the open-government
mailing list