[iRail] Close encounters with NMBS and De Lijn

Sat Dec 4 17:30:08 UTC 2010

Hey

Thanks for representing us!

A few comments

Most of what you're saying Pieter and I already heard at our previous NMBS meeting (http://lists.rootspirit.com/pipermail/irail/2010-September/000085.html).
They have "partners", that do get all the information using APIs (think De Lijn, MIVB, Google) and want to control the quality of apps. That was their main reason they did not have a public API.

But also, we have a different 'public'. We want a simple, fast, train schedule website/app with 'only the useful information', for frequent travellers. They provide all possible information. And of course, if we'd have the data, we could more easily add the extra information they blame us of not providing. 

And I'm getting a bit bored by this 'one complain about iRail' (which we, to date, still have not seen). Since then, a lot has changed on iRail. 
As stated during the meeting, they are very welcome to quality check iRail and/or forward feedback (negative and positive) they receive to us. Something they have not done yet either.

MIVB does not have a public API last time I checked. Emich did indeed create a fancy application, that MIVB bought. Emich now has access to all MIVB data, but it's just for his app.

Also, remember De Lijn is a private organisation (unlike NMBS) and they do not have to share any data at all. 
Last student that tried some DL scraper got police at his door and they confiscated his computer or something. At least, that's what De Morgen wrote a couple of months ago. 

// I did not include Sander and Bart in my reply, as to not flood them with mails. 

--
Kind regards,
Yeri Tiete
yeri at tiete.be
www.yeri.be
+32 (0)474/61.01.39

On 04 Dec 2010, at 17:39, Jan Fabry wrote:

> Hello iRail members,
> Hello Sander and Bart (please read on to know why you got this mail too),
> 
> Today I briefly spoke with Roger Kesteloot, director-general of De Lijn, and Sabin s'Heeren, director NMBS Mobility, at the VVS congress about (student) mobility.
> 
> The main concern when sharing data is always quality. They want to be sure that the information the customer receives is of high quality. This was the reason the NMBS wanted to stop iRail: they try to make their own route planner as advanced as possible, with extra information about delays, splitting trains, work info, ... iRail scrapes this site, but if to does not parse (or even breaks) on the extra information, the end user will not get the full message from the NMBS, possibly resulting in incorrect information and an unhappy customer. And when the user stands on a cold and deserted platform, will they blame iRail for giving incorrect information, or the NMBS? Remember it was a customer complaint to the NMBS about the iRail website that resulted in the cease-and-desist letter.
> 
> Keeping that in mind, mr. s'Heeren did not see the sharing of information as something that is by default impossible. Some strategic information will never be shared, because the NMBS will face competition in the domestic market in the future (think 2015-2020). Examples are the more "technical" information, like the turnaround times of vehicles, staffing etc. But sharing "customer-facing" info would be less of a problem: he gave the example of TomTom, which would like to integrate train schedules with GPS navigation, so if you wanted to go to Brussels your GPS device might direct you to the train station instead of the nearest highway. This would have to be non-commercial use: TomTom would not make extra money for offering NMBS info. It is also controlled with an agreement between TomTom and the NMBS, so quality can be more or less guaranteed.
> 
> For these reasons, the NMBS and Infrabel are working on some form of data sharing. Mr. s'Heeren of course did not have much technical info on it, but I assume it would be a situation where you get a (not necessarily paying!) contract with the NMBS and they provide routing info via an API. This is not the same as just an open data dump of the timetables and a feed of delay info, and it would be limited by the need for a contract.
> 
> They do not see a need for further data sharing, because they already offer multiple ways themselves: the regular and mobile websites, SMS, the iPhone and Android apps, ...
> 
> 
> De Lijn seems to be a step further: they already have some way of data sharing, they do this for no payment in case of non-commercial use, and I was suggested to contact Filip Brutsaert, sales manager (and Stubru listener? [ http://www.stubru.be/user/24539 ]). Apparently Sander Deryckere already contacted him (or his department) with the same question, but then for OpenStreetMap [ http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.imports/270 ]. I read some promising things in that mail, and I would like to know whether Sander replied, so I put him in CC. Dynamic data like timetables are not a good match for static data like the OSM map, so not all issues might apply to us.
> 
> De Lijn currently offers a widget, but also requires an agreement to use it on your site. If you read the terms [ http://www.delijn.be/images/algemene_voorwaarden_gebruik_plug_in_tcm7-16532.pdf ], you notice that you can't use it in a commercial environment because their agreement with NAVTEQ does not allow it. However, I assume the NAVTEQ-data is only used for the walking directions, so this is probably a surmountable problem.
> 
> On the other hand, Bart Van Loon from The DataTank had an unsuccessful meeting with De Lijn a few months ago. I also CC'ed him so he can tell us what happened there.
> 
> 
> I would like to explore the "De Lijn"-route further. We have the i-Vlaanderen roundtable coming up, and De Lijn is a simpler organization: smaller, mono-lingual, falling under a broader freedom of information act and an acting government. If we can open up data from De Lijn, this will set an example for the NMBS for how to do this with the community. Remember that the MIVB also has a working API, and Michaël Uyttersprot created an Android application together with them. Does anyone know more about that?
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Jan Fabry
> 
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