[@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team

Sat Apr 4 11:27:44 UTC 2015

Hi Rosie,

It's not the list in particular - it's the organisational process, how we,
as active OKau members, go about making decisions and under what
conditions, that Cobi is referring to.

So it's partly this list, but not exclusively. It's about "how does OK run
itself". What I hear Cobi saying is "all decisions, and decision making
processes, must happen in an open forum". In this case we can substitute
the term forum for "any possibly imagined software that might be used to
communicate - be it an email list, a forum, list making software, etherpad,
wiki, bandcamp, etc etc.". The *type* of software doesn't matter, it's
totally irrelevant. It's the *process*.

And that's where we disagree. I don't think the OKau decision making
process should be open. I believe there should be a barrier to entry, that
barrier should be minor, as small as possible, but a barrier should exist.
I wont repeat my reasoning for that position, it's all in the previous
email.

Cheers
L.

------
 It is through this shadowy emptiness (of negative space) that we walk,
talk, see, and live; negative space is the impossible cellophane layer that
drapes the known world and is invisible to all but to the most perceptive
minds.

It is possible to learn to see negative space though, in both the visual
and imagined worlds. The first step is developing the ability to see, and
the second is learning — as romantic poet John Keats put it — to be
“capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any
irritable reaching after fact & reason.”
----
Seeking Genius in Negative Space, Chris Messina
https://medium.com/genius-week/seeking-genius-in-negative-space-4e7c755f641f

On 4 April 2015 at 19:32, Rosie Williams <budgetaus at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Lachlan,
>
> Thanks for your thoughts. I tend agree that unmoderated discussion is
> often a problem and I'm usually against it but with regard to this
> particular list until recently there hasn't been a lot of mail. Are you
> saying that you fear this list will become overrun with trolling?
>
> I thought the decision to use Basecamp was because it provided planning
> functionality and assumed a different place for communication that would
> allow for technical issues to be discussed that are not really of interest
> to people not working on them. I didn't realise it had anything to do with
> concern over moderation.
>
> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
> ________________________________________
>
>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au> - Open Data Reporter
>  InfoAus.net <http://infoaus.net> - Founder and Developer
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 18:24:24 +1100
> From: datakid at gmail.com
> To: okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
>
> Subject: Re: [@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team
>
> There seems to be two different issues here. While slightly connected, I
> think the decision over which software to use versus which organising
> principles to use are different, and should be treated as such.
>
> I think most people seem to have expressed a slight preference for one or
> the other of the softwares, but it reality it's not the game changer.
>
> As for organising principles, I cannot disagree with Cobi strongly enough.
> Being committed to Open Knowledge but not to a nakedly open organising
> process are easily separable to my mind. In fact, I would consider it
> necessary in order for OK to function - from all of my 20 years of online
> organising experience.
>
> I watched Indymedia (locally and internationally) get decimated by an open
> process - apart from being paralysed by an inability to make a decision at
> an org level - where people were excluded not by virtue of ability to
> access but by ability to keep up with the email torrent/firehose (only the
> privileged could afford that time), the open comment system quickly showed
> itself to be problematic. We call it "trolling" now, back then it was just
> comment spam.
>
> Slashdot invented a system called Karma to deal with it, with middling
> success. Reddit tried hard, even re-invented karma, but eventually fell to
> the dark edges and had to start closing accounts and subreddits.
>
> Wikipedia had to start locking pages. Boingboing found it impossible to
> have a functioning discussion forum without employed moderators. People
> often cite Metafilter's $5 joining fee as the key to its (now past)
> success. Engagemedia insisted on moderation. The new forum/board software
> Discourse spent more time trying to work out a minimised moderation system
> than they did coding the frame to go around it.
>
> Most newspapers quickly discovered the problem of completely unmoderated
> discussions below articles.
>
> I challenge anyone to point to a functional and open, unmoderated, online
> organisation. I do not think it is possible.
>
> And to push home the point, I will reiterate what I think is a very
> important point - that calling a small entry hurdle "privilege" does no one
> any favours. Being on the internet is privileged. Being able to join a
> group called Open Knowledge, to have the learning to know what that is, to
> think it's important, to have the time and to prioritise the time to spend
> on an organisation called Open Knowledge is privilege.
>
> I am committed to Open Knowledge, I want to see it be successful. I
> *invest my time, energy, smarts and money* into it because I want to see OK
> style outcomes. I think it's reasonable for me to want to have that
> investment properly managed and protected from random yahoos and people who
> actively dislike the idea of open knowledge.
>
> To my mind that protection is minimal enough that those who would like to
> participate can, while discouraging those who are interested in trolling.
>
> I am disappointed that you think a completely open process is a game
> changer Cobi - I think Open Knowledge will be poorer without your input at
> a org level.
>
> Cheers
> L.
>
>
>
>
> ------
>  It is through this shadowy emptiness (of negative space) that we walk,
> talk, see, and live; negative space is the impossible cellophane layer that
> drapes the known world and is invisible to all but to the most perceptive
> minds.
>
> It is possible to learn to see negative space though, in both the visual
> and imagined worlds. The first step is developing the ability to see, and
> the second is learning — as romantic poet John Keats put it — to be
> “capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any
> irritable reaching after fact & reason.”
> ----
> Seeking Genius in Negative Space, Chris Messina
>
> https://medium.com/genius-week/seeking-genius-in-negative-space-4e7c755f641f
>
> On 4 April 2015 at 17:35, Rosie Williams <budgetaus at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Cobi,
>
> I'm not familiar either with BaseCamp or Trello. Thanks for sharing the
> reasons behind your choices.
>
> Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)
> ________________________________________
>
>  NoFibs.com.au <http://nofibs.com.au> - Open Data Reporter
>  InfoAus.net <http://infoaus.net> - Founder and Developer
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: cobi.smith at unimelb.edu.au
> To: okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
> Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 04:45:56 +0000
>
> Subject: Re: [@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team
>
> I've used Basecamp before, including for an open project I was employed
> on, which also involved weekly semi-open calls for the project to sort out
> action and details that were time-dependent. I get what you're saying about
> the need for privacy about personal data. That's not the same as privacy
> around tactics and framing messages to stakeholders.
>
>  My research is about governance more than data. Open knowledge as an
> organisation isn't just about open data. There are also working groups for
> open development and lobbying transparency. I'm concerned governance of
> Open Knowledge Australia is inconsistent with the aims of those working
> groups within the organisation we're representing.
>
>  I'm not going to regurgitate a whole chapter of my thesis on my list,
> but I will make a couple of points.
> - forcing people to request to have access to information is a barrier
> that limits the type of people who will seek and thus get access to that
> information. If you see that as insignificant, maybe there are barriers
> you're unfamiliar with. Maybe that's part of your privilege.
> - planning to collect private data from ambassadors and advisors as a
> reason to keep organizational information private also rings alarm bells.
> Most of us choose to be publicly accessible through mediums of our choice.
> Journalists use Twitter. I would prefer a journalist to DM me on Twitter
> than call my mobile. I know other people who invest time and energy into
> Open Knowledge Australia also don't much like phone calls. I speak about
> open knowledge publicly already - and I will continue to do so, regardless
> of whatever tactical messaging you plan.
>
>  I won't be participating in the Basecamp. I will be continuing with open
> projects. I'm happy to keep being an OKFNau advisor regarding open
> development, but I will contribute at levels that are the public domain.
> I'm not willing to invest more time than I am at the moment because of how
> OKFNau is being governed. I'm also not happy with how Australia is being
> governed, FWIW. There are certain types of people who these types of
> governance structures suit, and I'm not one of them.
>
>  </rant>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* okfn-au [okfn-au-bounces at lists.okfn.org] on behalf of Steven De
> Costa [steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 1 April 2015 5:28 PM
> *To:* Open Knowledge discussion list for Australia.
> *Subject:* Re: [@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications
> Team
>
>   Coolio - thanks for the clarification :)
>
>  I've added a few things into basecamp already which kind of go beyond
> just website updates though. Maybe if people jump in and take a look?
>
>  For example I'm keen to try and get all the phone numbers of topic and
> region ambassadors so that it is easier for people to connect on things
> without it being in the public domain (something that can be provided to
> journalists, for example). One other example here is for speaking events.
> OKAU could and should speak on subjects in the public domain and it would
> be great to get our messaging on these opportunities in concert before
> broadcasting them.
>
>  btw - I haven't rerun the board meeting vid to check all actions but
> there are some things I need to put out for community consultation too.
> Once the minutes are finished and approved that will all be on the blog
> post.
>
>  If the community exception to basecamp is consistent then yeah, moving
> to Trello is no stress. But if we imagine that this is a process of
> consultation and I'm trying to ask people to consider basecamp then it
> would be fantastic for people to jump in and take a look.  Porting to
> Trello next Wednesday is fine if consensus on that is reached. The primary
> task right now though is to get active participation so I'd really love
> people to consider helping via basecamp over the next week, even if only as
> a trial.
>
>  Cheers,
> Steven
>
>
>
>      *STEVEN DE COSTA *|
> *EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR *www.linkdigital.com.au
>
>
>
> On 1 April 2015 at 17:09, Paul Walsh <paulywalsh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’ll clarify my original comment:
>
>  * I’m not pitching for Trello vs Basecamp at all (I’ve used both
> extensively)
> * I’m not pitching for stagnation via groupthink and consensus on every
> issue (I have experienced it too and I totally get your point)
> * I am in complete agreement that there must be a need for board (etc.)
> communications that are not public
> * I am suggesting that issues around the website updates (and other
> public-facing projects) would maybe benefit from a collaborative platform
>
>  Best
>
>  Paul
>
>
>  On 1 Apr 2015, at 07:33, Steven De Costa <
> steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au> wrote:
>
>  No major reason. The theory is great for Trello but I've based the
> decision to go with Basecamp on the following points:
>
>    1. I've personally seen Basecamp work really well for GovHack
>    2. I've seen some groupthink and apathy creep into entirely open
>    project management platforms where it becomes easy for focus and momentum
>    to dissipate into ideas, discussion and much less action.
>    3. I like to be very open with big ideas and specific details - I find
>    that it is very difficult to communicate the detail when it concerns either
>    private contact info, tactics on how to message ideas to stakeholders or
>    when balancing the needs commercial-in-confidence stakeholder relationships.
>
> I use Trello within the CKAN Association steering group and don't see any
> major advantage between the two platforms.
>
>  I'd be more than happy to setup Trello at a later date and let the
> momentum of those doing stuff shuffle from one to the other. However, right
> now I have a job to do and just want to get stuck into it while I can :)
>
>  We have a long weekend ahead of us and that means people might have some
> time to invest in blog posts, copywriting or just joining in with
> discussions on actionable/deliverable stuff for OKAU.
>
>  Do you want me to invite you into the basecamp?
>
>  Oh - I should also mention that where there is something specific being
> developed then yeah, we'll certainly need wider collaboration but could
> easily do that with publicly editable google docs. Linking those into this
> list with specific context on the type of effort we are trying to pull
> together would be the method methinks :)
>
>  Cheers,
> Steven
>
>
>      *STEVEN DE COSTA *|
> *EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR *www.linkdigital.com.au
>
>
>
> On 1 April 2015 at 15:02, Paul Walsh <paulywalsh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry to stir the pot, but why Basecamp instead of Trello, in which boards
> can be publicly visible and open, which promotes wider collaboration?
>
>
>
>  On 1 Apr 2015, at 06:24, Steven De Costa <
> steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au> wrote:
>
>    For those who didn't follow the Board discussion yesterday, or who
> haven't caught up, or who just want a quick summary on one point...
>
>  I had an action to setup a basecamp project to help with the
> coordiantion of website updates.
>
>  I have now set this up and invited a few people in from the Board and a
> few others I know will be interested (datakid and maxious).
>
>  It would be great to also have all local and topic ambassadors involved
> in the basecamp experience. It would double plus also be great to have
> advisers involved. And, as always it would be exceptionally cool to have
> any others with the energy, drive and interest to put themselves forward
> for joining in.
>
>  Please send me a direct email - steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au if
> you'd like an invite.
>
>  Please note: The intention is not to have a closed group, nor to
> deteriorate the cohesion and great conversations going on through this list
> or other mediums. Its just to help get things done for OKAU with a little
> more coordination and support via a platform that is setup to do such a
> thing.
>
>  btw - The video link for that Board discussion, as a reminder, is here:
> http://au.okfn.org/2015/03/31/board-meeting-31-march-2015/
>
>  Rocks!
>
>  PS - I'll drop this in as a comment on that post for people to discover
> the info there too. The email addy will be removed and replaced with a
> request to ping @okfnau via twitter.
>
>
>      *STEVEN DE COSTA *|
> *EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR *www.linkdigital.com.au
>
>
>        _______________________________________________
> okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
> _______________________________________________
> okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
> _______________________________________________
> okfn-au mailing list
> okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-au
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-au
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/okfn-au/attachments/20150404/d5f9f350/attachment-0004.html>