[@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team

Sat Apr 4 20:10:56 UTC 2015

Thanks Lachlan, 
I'm fairly unclear about the intended purpose of Basecamp. Can I have an example list of the kinds of decisions that people think might be made though it?

Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)________________________________________

 NoFibs.com.au - Open Data Reporter InfoAus.net - Founder and Developer 

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 22:27:44 +1100
From: datakid at gmail.com
To: okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
Subject: Re: [@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team

Hi Rosie,

It's not the list in particular - it's the organisational process, how we, as active OKau members, go about making decisions and under what conditions, that Cobi is referring to.

So it's partly this list, but not exclusively. It's about "how does OK run itself". What I hear Cobi saying is "all decisions, and decision making processes, must happen in an open forum". In this case we can substitute the term forum for "any possibly imagined software that might be used to communicate - be it an email list, a forum, list making software, etherpad, wiki, bandcamp, etc etc.". The *type* of software doesn't matter, it's totally irrelevant. It's the *process*. 

And that's where we disagree. I don't think the OKau decision making process should be open. I believe there should be a barrier to entry, that barrier should be minor, as small as possible, but a barrier should exist. I wont repeat my reasoning for that position, it's all in the previous email.

Cheers
L.

------
 It is through this shadowy emptiness (of negative space) that we walk, talk, see, and live; negative space is the impossible cellophane layer that drapes the known world and is invisible to all but to the most perceptive minds.

It is possible to learn to see negative space though, in both the visual and imagined worlds. The first step is developing the ability to see, and the second is learning — as romantic poet John Keats put it — to be “capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason.”
----
Seeking Genius in Negative Space, Chris Messina
https://medium.com/genius-week/seeking-genius-in-negative-space-4e7c755f641f

On 4 April 2015 at 19:32, Rosie Williams <budgetaus at hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Lachlan, 
Thanks for your thoughts. I tend agree that unmoderated discussion is often a problem and I'm usually against it but with regard to this particular list until recently there hasn't been a lot of mail. Are you saying that you fear this list will become overrun with trolling?
I thought the decision to use Basecamp was because it provided planning functionality and assumed a different place for communication that would allow for technical issues to be discussed that are not really of interest to people not working on them. I didn't realise it had anything to do with concern over moderation.

Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)________________________________________

 NoFibs.com.au - Open Data Reporter InfoAus.net - Founder and Developer 

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 18:24:24 +1100
From: datakid at gmail.com
To: okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
Subject: Re: [@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team

There seems to be two different issues here. While slightly connected, I think the decision over which software to use versus which organising principles to use are different, and should be treated as such. 

I think most people seem to have expressed a slight preference for one or the other of the softwares, but it reality it's not the game changer.

As for organising principles, I cannot disagree with Cobi strongly enough. Being committed to Open Knowledge but not to a nakedly open organising process are easily separable to my mind. In fact, I would consider it necessary in order for OK to function - from all of my 20 years of online organising experience. 

I watched Indymedia (locally and internationally) get decimated by an open process - apart from being paralysed by an inability to make a decision at an org level - where people were excluded not by virtue of ability to access but by ability to keep up with the email torrent/firehose (only the privileged could afford that time), the open comment system quickly showed itself to be problematic. We call it "trolling" now, back then it was just comment spam.

Slashdot invented a system called Karma to deal with it, with middling success. Reddit tried hard, even re-invented karma, but eventually fell to the dark edges and had to start closing accounts and subreddits.

Wikipedia had to start locking pages. Boingboing found it impossible to have a functioning discussion forum without employed moderators. People often cite Metafilter's $5 joining fee as the key to its (now past) success. Engagemedia insisted on moderation. The new forum/board software Discourse spent more time trying to work out a minimised moderation system than they did coding the frame to go around it. 

Most newspapers quickly discovered the problem of completely unmoderated discussions below articles. 

I challenge anyone to point to a functional and open, unmoderated, online organisation. I do not think it is possible.

And to push home the point, I will reiterate what I think is a very important point - that calling a small entry hurdle "privilege" does no one any favours. Being on the internet is privileged. Being able to join a group called Open Knowledge, to have the learning to know what that is, to think it's important, to have the time and to prioritise the time to spend on an organisation called Open Knowledge is privilege. 

I am committed to Open Knowledge, I want to see it be successful. I *invest my time, energy, smarts and money* into it because I want to see OK style outcomes. I think it's reasonable for me to want to have that investment properly managed and protected from random yahoos and people who actively dislike the idea of open knowledge. 

To my mind that protection is minimal enough that those who would like to participate can, while discouraging those who are interested in trolling.

I am disappointed that you think a completely open process is a game changer Cobi - I think Open Knowledge will be poorer without your input at a org level. 

Cheers
L.

------
 It is through this shadowy emptiness (of negative space) that we walk, talk, see, and live; negative space is the impossible cellophane layer that drapes the known world and is invisible to all but to the most perceptive minds.

It is possible to learn to see negative space though, in both the visual and imagined worlds. The first step is developing the ability to see, and the second is learning — as romantic poet John Keats put it — to be “capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason.”
----
Seeking Genius in Negative Space, Chris Messina
https://medium.com/genius-week/seeking-genius-in-negative-space-4e7c755f641f

On 4 April 2015 at 17:35, Rosie Williams <budgetaus at hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Cobi, 
I'm not familiar either with BaseCamp or Trello. Thanks for sharing the reasons behind your choices.

Rosie Williams BA (Sociology)________________________________________

 NoFibs.com.au - Open Data Reporter InfoAus.net - Founder and Developer 

From: cobi.smith at unimelb.edu.au
To: okfn-au at lists.okfn.org
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 04:45:56 +0000
Subject: Re: [@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team

I've used Basecamp before, including for an open project I was employed on, which also involved weekly semi-open calls for the project to sort out action and details that were time-dependent.
 I get what you're saying about the need for privacy about personal data. That's not the same as privacy around tactics and framing messages to stakeholders. 

My research is about governance more than data. Open knowledge as an organisation isn't just about open data. There are also working groups for open development and lobbying transparency. I'm concerned governance of Open Knowledge Australia is inconsistent
 with the aims of those working groups within the organisation we're representing. 

I'm not going to regurgitate a whole chapter of my thesis on my list, but I will make a couple of points.
- forcing people to request to have access to information is a barrier that limits the type of people who will seek and thus get access to that information. If you see that as insignificant, maybe there are barriers you're unfamiliar with. Maybe that's
 part of your privilege. 
- planning to collect private data from ambassadors and advisors as a reason to keep organizational information private also rings alarm bells. Most of us choose to be publicly accessible through mediums of our choice. Journalists use Twitter. I would
 prefer a journalist to DM me on Twitter than call my mobile. I know other people who invest time and energy into Open Knowledge Australia also don't much like phone calls. I speak about open knowledge publicly already - and I will continue to do so, regardless
 of whatever tactical messaging you plan.

I won't be participating in the Basecamp. I will be continuing with open projects. I'm happy to keep being an OKFNau advisor regarding open development, but I will contribute at levels that are the public domain. I'm not willing to invest more time than
 I am at the moment because of how OKFNau is being governed. I'm also not happy with how Australia is being governed, FWIW. There are certain types of people who these types of governance structures suit, and I'm not one of them. 

</rant>

From: okfn-au [okfn-au-bounces at lists.okfn.org] on behalf of Steven De Costa [steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au]

Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2015 5:28 PM

To: Open Knowledge discussion list for Australia.

Subject: Re: [@OKau] Basecamp for an OKAU Community and Communications Team

Coolio - thanks for the clarification :)

I've added a few things into basecamp already which kind of go beyond just website updates though. Maybe if people jump in and take a look?

For example I'm keen to try and get all the phone numbers of topic and region ambassadors so that it is easier for people to connect on things without it being in the public domain (something that can be provided to journalists, for example). One other
 example here is for speaking events. OKAU could and should speak on subjects in the public domain and it would be great to get our messaging on these opportunities in concert before broadcasting them.

btw - I haven't rerun the board meeting vid to check all actions but there are some things I need to put out for community consultation too. Once the minutes are finished and approved that will all be on the blog post.

If the community exception to basecamp is consistent then yeah, moving to Trello is no stress. But if we imagine that this is a process of consultation and I'm trying to ask people to consider basecamp then it would be fantastic for people to jump in and
 take a look.  Porting to Trello next Wednesday is fine if consensus on that is reached. The primary task right now though is to get active participation so I'd really love people to consider helping via basecamp over the next week, even if only as a trial.

Cheers,
Steven

STEVEN DE COSTA | EXECUTIVE
 DIRECTOR

www.linkdigital.com.au

On 1 April 2015 at 17:09, Paul Walsh <paulywalsh at gmail.com> wrote:

I’ll clarify my original comment:

* I’m not pitching for Trello vs Basecamp at all (I’ve used both extensively)
* I’m not pitching for stagnation via groupthink and consensus on every issue (I have experienced it too and I totally get your point)
* I am in complete agreement that there must be a need for board (etc.) communications that are not public
* I am suggesting that issues around the website updates (and other public-facing projects) would maybe benefit from a collaborative platform

Best

Paul

On 1 Apr 2015, at 07:33, Steven De Costa <steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au> wrote:

No major reason. The theory is great for Trello but I've based the decision to go with Basecamp on the following points:

I've personally seen Basecamp work really well for GovHack

I've seen some groupthink and apathy creep into entirely open project management platforms where it becomes easy for focus and momentum to dissipate into ideas, discussion and much less action.

I like to be very open with big ideas and specific details - I find that it is very difficult to communicate the detail when it concerns either private contact info, tactics on how to message ideas to stakeholders or when balancing the needs commercial-in-confidence
 stakeholder relationships.
I use Trello within the CKAN Association steering group and don't see any major advantage between the two platforms.

I'd be more than happy to setup Trello at a later date and let the momentum of those doing stuff shuffle from one to the other. However, right now I have a job to do and just want to get stuck into it while I can :)

We have a long weekend ahead of us and that means people might have some time to invest in blog posts, copywriting or just joining in with discussions on actionable/deliverable stuff for OKAU.

Do you want me to invite you into the basecamp?

Oh - I should also mention that where there is something specific being developed then yeah, we'll certainly need wider collaboration but could easily do that with publicly editable google docs. Linking those into this list with specific context on the
 type of effort we are trying to pull together would be the method methinks :)

Cheers,
Steven

STEVEN DE COSTA | EXECUTIVE
 DIRECTOR

www.linkdigital.com.au

On 1 April 2015 at 15:02, Paul Walsh <paulywalsh at gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry to stir the pot, but why Basecamp instead of Trello, in which boards can be publicly visible and open, which promotes wider collaboration?

On 1 Apr 2015, at 06:24, Steven De Costa <steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au> wrote:

For those who didn't follow the Board discussion yesterday, or who haven't caught up, or who just want a quick summary on one point...

I had an action to setup a basecamp project to help with the coordiantion of website updates.

I have now set this up and invited a few people in from the Board and a few others I know will be interested (datakid and maxious).

It would be great to also have all local and topic ambassadors involved in the basecamp experience. It would double plus also be great to have advisers involved. And, as always it would be exceptionally cool to have any others with the energy, drive and
 interest to put themselves forward for joining in.

Please send me a direct email - 
steven.decosta at linkdigital.com.au if you'd like an invite.

Please note: The intention is not to have a closed group, nor to deteriorate the cohesion and great conversations going on through this list or other mediums. Its just to help get things done for OKAU with a little more coordination and support via a platform
 that is setup to do such a thing.

btw - The video link for that Board discussion, as a reminder, is here: http://au.okfn.org/2015/03/31/board-meeting-31-march-2015/

Rocks!

PS - I'll drop this in as a comment on that post for people to discover the info there too. The email addy will be removed and replaced with a request to ping @okfnau via twitter.

STEVEN DE COSTA | EXECUTIVE
 DIRECTOR

www.linkdigital.com.au

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