[okfn-discuss] Keeping DRM out of HTML5

Thu May 16 20:03:14 UTC 2013

Gavin, I agree. So I was just reframing: Native apps and segregated
platforms are indeed a threat if not a sabotage of the open web. The
calculus must be whether DRM in HTML is an effective defense in any way,
whether it will not have worse downsides, and whether we can afford the
political damage of acquiescing. Keeping the frame about trying to
compromise in order to ward off worse threats, I'm willing to support
continued discussion about what compromise makes sense.

--
Aaron Wolf
wolftune.com

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Gavin Chait <gavin.chait at okfn.org> wrote:

> Aaron, there is a fast-growing alternative to the open web.  Native apps.*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> And that is a world controlled by Google, Apple and Microsoft.****
>
> ** **
>
> Ars Technica has a good review of the stakes:
> http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/05/drm-in-html5-is-a-victory-for-the-open-web-not-a-defeat/
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> G****
>
> ** **
> ------------------------------
>
> *Gavin Chait** | Head of Services* *| Open Knowledge Foundation
> *gavin.chait at okfn.org | M:  +44 (0) 78 9495 7090  | http://okfn.org/****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Aaron Wolf [mailto:wolftune at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 16 May 2013 20:12
> *To:* gavin.chait at okfn.org; Open Knowledge Foundation discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [okfn-discuss] Keeping DRM out of HTML5****
>
> ** **
>
> Gavin,****
>
> I think there's a certain frame missing from your point. I see it simply
> like this: if the proprietary-publishers have enough power to really
> sabotage the open web otherwise, then compromising on DRM in order to avoid
> that sabotage is indeed in our interests.****
>
> I think that's what you're saying. If not, if you think that the open web
> will survive and be robust regardless of what saboteurs may do, then
> accepting DRM is totally debatable. The idea that more-open but-DRM'ed
> stuff will bring more total net openness is misguided, I think. Bringing
> easy accessible DRM into the frame is sure to enable and encourage adding
> DRM in tons of places where it might otherwise be avoided.****
>
> I think we compromise only when the alternative is worse, that's how
> compromise works. I am not convinced this situation applies.****
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron****
>
>
> ****
>
> --
> Aaron Wolf
> wolftune.com****
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Gavin Chait <gavin.chait at okfn.org> wrote:
> ****
>
> Late to this issue, but here’s my ten cents.****
>
>  ****
>
> There will always be content owners.  Some will choose to publish under an
> open license, some will not.  The nature of some types of content means
> that it will be hard to open (contract publishing, for instance).****
>
>  ****
>
> This isn’t really a matter of whether rights management should happen or
> not, but about the nature of the platforms used to manage that access.  If
> we are not to produce a polyglot of incompatible DRM formats (as we
> currently have, with every publisher producing their own) it would be
> fantastic if this could be incorporated into a common standard format that
> is already widely used and accessible.****
>
>  ****
>
> More importantly, if content is published under DRM in HTML then it can be
> easily converted to an open format. If it is published on a proprietary
> format then it may prove difficult to convert and potentially be lost to
> openness indefinitely.****
>
>  ****
>
> Pragmatism may work to support the open movement, rather than to render
> HTML – the best common standard we have – excluded from the debate.****
>
>  ****
>
> Regards****
>
>  ****
>
> Gavin****
>
>  ****
> ------------------------------
>
> *Gavin Chait** | Head of Services* *| Open Knowledge Foundation
> *gavin.chait at okfn.org | M:  +44 (0) 78 9495 7090  | http://okfn.org/****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* okfn-discuss-bounces at lists.okfn.org [mailto:
> okfn-discuss-bounces at lists.okfn.org] *On Behalf Of *Harry Halpin
> *Sent:* 16 May 2013 17:17
> *To:* Open Knowledge Foundation discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [okfn-discuss] Keeping DRM out of HTML5****
>
>  ****
>
> As someone who was at the last HTML WG meeting, I'm going to note that
> none of the browser vendors objected, and *none* of the membership objected
> to the charter that included the 'protected content' use-case. If OKFN
> wanted to object, an easy way would be to join W3C and object. A petition
> will have much less of an effect I think. ****
>
>  ****
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Javier Creus <
> javicreus at ideasforchange.com> wrote:****
>
> hello,****
>
>  ****
>
> My humble opinion is that we are progressively moving from a copyright
> centric culture and business models to an open centric culture and economy.
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> This is not a black or white alternatiive: not everything was protected
> when the open movement started and not everything will be open when the big
> cultural shift will be done.****
>
>  ****
>
> My belief is that our mission is warranting that things are "open by
> default" and making the case for the public and business value of open,
> rather than limiting choice and entering in a frontal battle****
>
>  ****
>
> thanks,****
>
>  ****
>
> javi****
>
>  ****
>
> 2013/5/16 Jonathan Gray <jonathan.gray at okfn.org>****
>
> FYI are already an organisational signatory to:****
>
>  ****
>
> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/sign-on-against-drm-in-html****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> On 15 May 2013 23:48, Pieter Colpaert <pieter.colpaert at okfn.org> wrote:***
> *
>
> All,****
>
>  ****
>
> Daniel +1 - We should take a public stance against DRM in HTML5 (and in
> general).****
>
>  ****
>
> I think it would be interesting to summarize this in 3 solid arguments +
> an alternative in a blog post on okfn.org. If there's a consent, I'm
> willing to give a kickstart to such a blog post.****
>
>  ****
>
> Kind regards,****
>
>  ****
>
> Pieter****
>
>  ****
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Daniel Dietrich <
> daniel.dietrich at okfn.org> wrote:****
>
> Dear Herrmann,
>
> I think the OKFN should publicly reject DRM in general and as a whole.
> HTML5 is just one aspect of this battle.
>
> But thats just my humble opinion, interested to hear what other think.
>
> All best
> Daniel****
>
>
>
> On 15 May 2013, at 23:08, Augusto Herrmann <augusto.herrmann at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Since the WWW 2013 conference is happening this week, and this issue is
> in discussion there, I though this an opportune moment to revisit the topic.
> >
> > Do you guys think the OKFn should publicly reject DRM as a whole, or add
> to the campaign against it in HTML5, as the FSF and EFF have been doing?
> Even a blog post discussing why this is bad for open knowledge could be
> useful at this moment.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Augusto Herrmann
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Aaron Wolf <wolftune at gmail.com> wrote:
> > yes, sorry about my typo. We're clear. Public endorsements of negative
> things cause more harm than any potential upside of luring your enemies
> into your camp or whatever.
> >
> > All political positions matter in terms of how they inspire others, not
> just for the technical details.
> >
> > --
> > Aaron Wolf
> > wolftune.com
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Karsten Gerloff <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 01:06:04PM -0400, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Karsten Gerloff <
> gerloff at fsfeurope.org>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Looking at the, ahem, "success" of
> > > > technologies such as Flash and Silverlight, they're welcome to
> > > > try.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I must say, I know this is just a turn of phrase, but they are NOT
> welcome
> > > to try more of this. We need to keep working to have a culture that
> shames
> > > these attempts even when they are failed attempts.
> >
> > I fully agree.
> > >
> > > And that said, the idea of TBL endorsing DRM is destructive. Whether it
> > > possibly has any utility in bringing the systems to light where they
> can be
> > > rejected, if the goal of rejection isn't PUBLIC then it's bad for the
> > > culture. We can have respectable people telling the culture to respect
> DRM.
> >
> > s/can/can't, right?
> >
> > > This is a cultural battle more than a technological one.
> >
> > Quite so. If Tim Berners-Lee has a strategy here, I hope it's a
> > very good one. But I doubt it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Karsten
> > --
> > Karsten Gerloff                      [ ]   <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
> > Free Software Foundation Europe   [ ][ ][ ]      [http://fsfe.org]
> > President                            | |         +49 176 9690 4298
> > Your donation powers our work!           [http://fsfe.org/donate/]
> >
> > Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
> > at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
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