[okfn-discuss] Keeping DRM out of HTML5

Thu May 16 19:58:14 UTC 2013

Aaron, there is a fast-growing alternative to the open web.  Native apps.

And that is a world controlled by Google, Apple and Microsoft.

Ars Technica has a good review of the stakes:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/05/drm-in-html5-is-a-victory-for-the-op
en-web-not-a-defeat/

G

  _____  

Gavin Chait | Head of Services | Open Knowledge Foundation
 <mailto:gavin.chait at okfn.org> gavin.chait at okfn.org | M:  +44 (0) 78 9495
7090  |  <http://okfn.org/> http://okfn.org/

From: Aaron Wolf [mailto:wolftune at gmail.com] 
Sent: 16 May 2013 20:12
To: gavin.chait at okfn.org; Open Knowledge Foundation discussion list
Subject: Re: [okfn-discuss] Keeping DRM out of HTML5

Gavin,

I think there's a certain frame missing from your point. I see it simply
like this: if the proprietary-publishers have enough power to really
sabotage the open web otherwise, then compromising on DRM in order to avoid
that sabotage is indeed in our interests.

I think that's what you're saying. If not, if you think that the open web
will survive and be robust regardless of what saboteurs may do, then
accepting DRM is totally debatable. The idea that more-open but-DRM'ed stuff
will bring more total net openness is misguided, I think. Bringing easy
accessible DRM into the frame is sure to enable and encourage adding DRM in
tons of places where it might otherwise be avoided.

I think we compromise only when the alternative is worse, that's how
compromise works. I am not convinced this situation applies.

Cheers,
Aaron

--
Aaron Wolf
wolftune.com <http://wolftune.com/> 

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Gavin Chait <gavin.chait at okfn.org> wrote:

Late to this issue, but here's my ten cents.

There will always be content owners.  Some will choose to publish under an
open license, some will not.  The nature of some types of content means that
it will be hard to open (contract publishing, for instance).

This isn't really a matter of whether rights management should happen or
not, but about the nature of the platforms used to manage that access.  If
we are not to produce a polyglot of incompatible DRM formats (as we
currently have, with every publisher producing their own) it would be
fantastic if this could be incorporated into a common standard format that
is already widely used and accessible.

More importantly, if content is published under DRM in HTML then it can be
easily converted to an open format. If it is published on a proprietary
format then it may prove difficult to convert and potentially be lost to
openness indefinitely.

Pragmatism may work to support the open movement, rather than to render HTML
- the best common standard we have - excluded from the debate.

Regards

Gavin

  _____  

Gavin Chait | Head of Services | Open Knowledge Foundation
 <mailto:gavin.chait at okfn.org> gavin.chait at okfn.org | M:  +44
<tel:%2B44%C2%A0%280%29%C2%A078%C2%A09495%C2%A07090>  (0) 78 9495 7090  |
<http://okfn.org/> http://okfn.org/

From: okfn-discuss-bounces at lists.okfn.org
[mailto:okfn-discuss-bounces at lists.okfn.org] On Behalf Of Harry Halpin
Sent: 16 May 2013 17:17
To: Open Knowledge Foundation discussion list
Subject: Re: [okfn-discuss] Keeping DRM out of HTML5

As someone who was at the last HTML WG meeting, I'm going to note that none
of the browser vendors objected, and *none* of the membership objected to
the charter that included the 'protected content' use-case. If OKFN wanted
to object, an easy way would be to join W3C and object. A petition will have
much less of an effect I think. 

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Javier Creus <javicreus at ideasforchange.com>
wrote:

hello,

My humble opinion is that we are progressively moving from a copyright
centric culture and business models to an open centric culture and economy. 

This is not a black or white alternatiive: not everything was protected when
the open movement started and not everything will be open when the big
cultural shift will be done.

My belief is that our mission is warranting that things are "open by
default" and making the case for the public and business value of open,
rather than limiting choice and entering in a frontal battle

thanks,

javi

2013/5/16 Jonathan Gray <jonathan.gray at okfn.org>

FYI are already an organisational signatory to:

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/sign-on-against-drm-in-html

On 15 May 2013 23:48, Pieter Colpaert <pieter.colpaert at okfn.org> wrote:

All,

Daniel +1 - We should take a public stance against DRM in HTML5 (and in
general).

I think it would be interesting to summarize this in 3 solid arguments + an
alternative in a blog post on okfn.org. If there's a consent, I'm willing to
give a kickstart to such a blog post.

Kind regards,

Pieter

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Daniel Dietrich <daniel.dietrich at okfn.org>
wrote:

Dear Herrmann,

I think the OKFN should publicly reject DRM in general and as a whole. HTML5
is just one aspect of this battle.

But thats just my humble opinion, interested to hear what other think.

All best
Daniel

On 15 May 2013, at 23:08, Augusto Herrmann <augusto.herrmann at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Since the WWW 2013 conference is happening this week, and this issue is in
discussion there, I though this an opportune moment to revisit the topic.
>
> Do you guys think the OKFn should publicly reject DRM as a whole, or add
to the campaign against it in HTML5, as the FSF and EFF have been doing?
Even a blog post discussing why this is bad for open knowledge could be
useful at this moment.
>
> Regards,
> Augusto Herrmann
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Aaron Wolf <wolftune at gmail.com> wrote:
> yes, sorry about my typo. We're clear. Public endorsements of negative
things cause more harm than any potential upside of luring your enemies into
your camp or whatever.
>
> All political positions matter in terms of how they inspire others, not
just for the technical details.
>
> --
> Aaron Wolf
> wolftune.com
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Karsten Gerloff <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 01:06:04PM -0400, Aaron Wolf wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Karsten Gerloff
<gerloff at fsfeurope.org>wrote:
> >
> > > Looking at the, ahem, "success" of
> > > technologies such as Flash and Silverlight, they're welcome to
> > > try.
> > >
> >
> > I must say, I know this is just a turn of phrase, but they are NOT
welcome
> > to try more of this. We need to keep working to have a culture that
shames
> > these attempts even when they are failed attempts.
>
> I fully agree.
> >
> > And that said, the idea of TBL endorsing DRM is destructive. Whether it
> > possibly has any utility in bringing the systems to light where they can
be
> > rejected, if the goal of rejection isn't PUBLIC then it's bad for the
> > culture. We can have respectable people telling the culture to respect
DRM.
>
> s/can/can't, right?
>
> > This is a cultural battle more than a technological one.
>
> Quite so. If Tim Berners-Lee has a strategy here, I hope it's a
> very good one. But I doubt it.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Karsten
> --
> Karsten Gerloff                      [ ]   <gerloff at fsfeurope.org>
> Free Software Foundation Europe   [ ][ ][ ]      [http://fsfe.org]
> President                            | |         +49 176 9690 4298
<tel:%2B49%20176%209690%204298> 
> Your donation powers our work!           [http://fsfe.org/donate/]
>
> Free Software Foundation Europe e.V. is a German Verein registered
> at the Registergericht Hamburg (VR 17030).
>
>
>
>
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