[okfn-hu] Planning for open data workshop in Budapest, 20th May

Tue May 3 15:02:21 UTC 2011

Hello,

Thank you Jonathan for your time to provide such detailed answers. I
didn't have the time to read all the links you provided but I believe
they'll answer even more questions of mine.

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 01:45, Jonathan Gray <jonathan.gray at okfn.org> wrote:
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Peter Gervai <grinapo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 21:12, Jonathan Gray <jonathan.gray at okfn.org> wrote:

> The event is an unconference about open government data in Hungary.
> From the website:

I have read the website, and what I (personally, since I may be
totally different from the rest of the world :)) missed was the
purpose and goals, apart from "meeting". But then again if it'd be
written that it's "just about meeting each others" maybe I wouldn't
even considered registering. :-)

> Open data is data which anyone is free to reuse and redistribute
> without restriction. Much like the material in Wikipedia or open
> source software. (As I'm sure you're aware!)

Yes, both large projects (wikipedia and OSM) meets the problem often.

> Personally I have several things that I'd like to do (e.g. find out
> more about Hungarian spending data, and map out data sources using the
> Hungarian instance of CKAN) - but I'm also very keen to learn more
> about what other people want to do with open data. E.g. what are
> journalists, NGOs, developers, and others interested in doing with
> open data.

I guess there are two basic groups of users: the business and the
personal users, the former including the press and like, while the
latter may include all the open content based mashup projects, like WP
and OSM.

Hungary (most probably similar to the rest of EU) have a lot of
governmental database which is open by law but inaccessible due to the
working of the system. Collecting these requires plenty of time (since
the related law texts should be analysed whether they actually secure
the status of the data to be in the public domain), and just then we
reach the point where we have to convince the officials to release the
(legally free) data, and forget about their huge income which is used
to support the restricted distribution of the same data. I'm talking
about _large_ datasets, like the company registry, the national base
maps (road, water, ...) and such. These all are supposed to be
accessible by the masses and by electronical means, and they aren't
because they generate income for the institutions whose sole reason of
existence is to provide the data by restricted means. These could be
mapped, verified and their legal status defined.

It would require some better support than I've seen, since it's a
multiphase work:
* possible datasets should be registered (dataset name, provider,
current means of access, current pricing, and everything which is
easily known)
* registered datasets require status updates (license if known, legal
background and related laws, whether a restricted licence is legal(!)
at all, which body controls or should control the release, who thinks
they have copyright protection about the material, etc)
* categorise whether the dataset is free and clear; or if it just
requires acknowledgement from the control body; or if the status is
troubled, like when the legal status should be free but some entity
denies access, and by what grounds, since this all shows that heavy
legal fight required; or if the legal free status is clear but the
owners illegally ignore it and we should actually get ("steal") the
data; or when the data is clearly not accessible legally; or when a
data is not yet accessible but it is possible that the powers that be
can be convinced otherwise

So each entry can be processed through these phases, and each cases
either closed or kept pending. This can be database-backed or
wiki-backed, both fits the need and both have pros and cons.

In my experience good quality open data attracts developers and
re-users. Unfortunately we need some maniacs (like us) who actually
free the data so others can dream of uses not yet existing.

> Perhaps you have different or higher expectations than me about what
> can be achieved in a single event.

No, actually I do not believe most of my expectations could be filled
in the near future, but it is definitely not hopeless. The government
officials I have talked with were supportive of the idea of "public
data for public money" but it's just not their level to actually
create the required policies. I'm the talker, I'm not the activity guy
who drives things to fruition, that's for a more agile person (with
more free time) than me.

> collaborations or projects - and perhaps e.g. making some small web
> app(s). It will be 'hands on' in the sense that I hope we'll get stuck
> into some datasets, dataset mapping and some coding.

I suggest the above framework for the people who want to get involved
in this community. A good, reliable source of good data sets is the
basic requirement of starting coding the web apps. And collection and
processing requires time. I would check a few data myself, too.

> policy and politics, and much more focused on building a stronger data
> reuser community, on how open data can be used to enable things like
> useful web applications, better reportage, more evidence based
> policies, etc, and practical things like starting to code on such
> projects and figuring out what is needed to take things forward.

All of this depends on verified data sources. While we have a great, long
history of illegal data access :-) I'm not convinced it can go on forever.

(As a sidenote I want to change the rotten copyright system, too, how
about that for a half day unconference? :-D Okay, just kidding, that's
a different topic.)

> I'm keen to come along to listen (e.g. to what people want, what
> they'd like and what they are working on), and to see if there's any
> way we (as a small NGO with limited resources) can be helpful.

It could be a good way to collect dataset wishes, I accept.

> Thanks for your input. Your aims are all fairly big (free Hungary's
> data!) for such a small workshop.

Actually my aims aren't specific to this conference, I always keep
them around. :-)

> Do you have any smaller concrete
> things you'd like to discuss or work on? E.g. an app, plugin,
> extension or service that you'd like to build using open data?

Yes, the framework above. ;-)

I believe one of the most important things about reuse is the clearly
defined list of datasets with clear, verified status of usage rights.
With such a list peple can actually see what they can work with.

> Would you *really* prefer us to organise a 3 day conference on the
> intricacies of PSI law and policy?

Not yet, but eventually. I guess many larger player could be
interested, even if they are very hard to make coming and support.

> If so have you seen the LAPSI or
> Share PSI events later this month [3]? We were much more keen to meet
> people and have a go at making stuff, as is generally the OKF's wont.
> ;-)

Not yet. I'll check.

>> So I hope you know what you're doing.
>
> If you mean running a small open data event then 'yes'. If you mean
> radically changing Hungarian information policy overnight then
> definitely 'no'! :-)

Ooooh, so you're not the Saviour. ;-)

> Regarding the lack of information do you have any *specific* questions
> that I or others might be able to help answer?

I believe I'll see who's around and why. Maybe even some people will
be around who knows people who know people. The way Hungary *really*
works, you see.

-- 
 byte-byte,
    grin