[Open-education] Open Government Data: Helping Parents to find the Best School for their Kids

Wed Jun 4 15:55:08 UTC 2014

"The elitism comes in when the data says this school is better, and to come
to this school you need to buy a 200,000 pound house. Tie that into knowing
your school isn't very good and something like declaration theory (if you
think you're going to fail, you're more likely to fail) then the openness
is counter-intuitive. "

I'm confused here. So the other option is not knowing that certain schools
are better than your local school? Surely knowing about the situation can
lead to change? Maybe your argument is about self-fulfilling prophecies? I
have children in the UK school system and am well aware that there are no
easy answers.

--------------------

We know schools are better though, we know Eton is better than almost
everywhere. We've league tables today that tell us Cambridge is best (shock
horror). If we feel the educational system should be comprehensive
(apologies for England and Wales terms), which is logically an equitable,
"open" system, then the data is more neutral? If schools are competing with
each other, or having competition engineered for them, then the data isn't
benign. If the data was for example - successful teaching approaches - then
the sharing of that would offer a benefit to anyone who chooses to use it
(a bit like OER).

Lets consider Chepstow, small town, half inside Wales, half inside England.
There are no league tables in Wales. Do the Welsh suffer due to this? Are
their schools worse? Does a broader goal of social cohesion override a
desire for individual access to data? The best schools in the UK are
usually faith schools, and we have people faking a faith to get in, and I'm
pretty sure the data on god existing is open. We also know a lot of social
division and problems are caused by communities failing to integrate. Was
it Brighton that has a lottery for school places to try and remove this
problem?

So it isn't not knowing, but more that when the data / knowledge is
quantised and compartmentalised (unless, all data is open) and so, when
treated in isolation doesn't look into wider issues which are explicitly
related.

Woods and trees I guess.

On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Marieke Guy <marieke.guy at okfn.org> wrote:

>  Hi Pat,
>
> Hmmm….
>
> "The elitism comes in when the data says this school is better, and to
> come to this school you need to buy a 200,000 pound house. Tie that into
> knowing your school isn't very good and something like declaration theory
> (if you think you're going to fail, you're more likely to fail) then the
> openness is counter-intuitive. "
>
> I'm confused here. So the other option is not knowing that certain schools
> are better than your local school? Surely knowing about the situation can
> lead to change? Maybe your argument is about self-fulfilling prophecies? I
> have children in the UK school system and am well aware that there are no
> easy answers.
>
> However open data can make for positive change. As Ottavio says "open
> education data helps a qualified debate by different actors that otherwise
> would not have access to this information restricted to school burocreacies"
>
> I think Ottavio's questions are very pertinent:
>
> Data - "But how they can be used to promote equity ? How they can be used
> to advance learning ? How they can be used to foster more collaboration
> within school clusters instead of more competition ? The data is there and
> how it can be used to defend these agendas?"
>
> These are what matter to those of us interested in open data. Exploration
> around these is where the potential lays.
>
> Thanks
>
> Marieke
>
>
> On 04/06/2014 15:38, Pat Lockley wrote:
>
> Quoting
>
> "Enabling parents to make choices about schools seems to me to be a good
> thing. We are not just talking about better academic schools but more
> appropriate schools (ones that support particular student needs with regard
> to academic ability, special needs, religion, disability, possible vocation
> etc.) I totally understand that league tables have in the past caused
> hysteria, but much of this is to do with media interpretation. Surely more
> data and more eyes on that data can bring us a more objective perspective.
> Data is not elitist, it is a tool. The elitism element comes in when people
> cannot interpret that data or have access to it. This means more tools to
> aid data interpretation, more training in data skills and more open data.
> Opening up data is to me an essential part of opening up education."
>
>  The elitism comes in when the data says this school is better, and to
> come to this school you need to buy a 200,000 pound house. Tie that into
> knowing your school isn't very good and something like declaration theory
> (if you think you're going to fail, you're more likely to fail) then the
> openness is counter-intuitive.
>
>  The reliance on many eyes, or many people, or civic action is also based
> on people having the time to do it. If you have the time to use the data,
> or can pay someone to do it for you, then you can benefit from it.
>
>  If the public policy was "all data open" then that's fine, but it isn't
> applied holistically, or consistently. Schools have league tables, but not
> say Army Battalions, Bus Drivers, trade missions, bank binus data, etc (and
> the chance it isn't without bias and that some of those biases aren't
> political is really slim). Voting as change is convenient if you think the
> lib dems stood for tripling tuition fees, it took an FOI request to access
> the Rothschild report on loan book selling (open?) and given the current
> system is costing more than the old system - it is likely openness is not
> going to easily happen with this data.
>
>  Contrast with an OER, everyone can, crudely, access it should they so
> with (with chronological implications above respected too). That is, to me,
> a very different thing.
>
>  I think what lacks from most openness is a sense almost of something
> akin to jurisprudence in how openness is developed as a concept. There is a
> quote from Blackstone about the law - "those entering a system surrender
> some liberty in doing so", and it seems innately openness isn't win win for
> everyone. Question then is how you reduce the negative impact of it.
>
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Marieke Guy <marieke.guy at okfn.org> wrote:
>
>>  Hi Pat and Terry,
>>
>> Thanks for your contributions here. They've given me a lot of food for
>> thought and I will look in to some of the points you make in more detail
>> when I have time.
>>
>> For example Terry - your post on schools being locked shut is a good
>> resource for the Friday Chat question I posted last week 'Is traditional
>> education not open?' - maybe I'll repost on Friday ;-)
>>
>> Anyway I just wanted to share my gut reaction to your comments about this
>> particular use of open data in education.
>>
>> Terry says: "*Surely, surely open education should be about far more
>> than just using performance data to try to get our kids into a better
>> school than our less well informed neighbours.*"
>>
>> And my answer to this would be: *Yes, yes it is, and there is so much
>> more we can do with it, but open data is by it's very nature open and
>> available for people to use in anyway they see fit. This is one interesting
>> approach with huge amounts of potential.*
>>
>> The open definition states (and this is referenced in the handbook).
>> “A piece of data or content is open if anyone is free to use, reuse, and
>> redistribute it — subject only, at most, to the requirement to attribute
>> and/or share-alike.”
>>
>> This then means it can be used for good, and for bad, and for commercial
>> exploitation.
>>
>> Enabling parents to make choices about schools seems to me to be a good
>> thing. We are not just talking about better academic schools but more
>> appropriate schools (ones that support particular student needs with regard
>> to academic ability, special needs, religion, disability, possible vocation
>> etc.) I totally understand that league tables have in the past caused
>> hysteria, but much of this is to do with media interpretation. Surely more
>> data and more eyes on that data can bring us a more objective perspective.
>> Data is not elitist, it is a tool. The elitism element comes in when people
>> cannot interpret that data or have access to it. This means more tools to
>> aid data interpretation, more training in data skills and more open data.
>> Opening up data is to me an essential part of opening up education.
>>
>> You might find it interesting to read about what other countries such as
>> Holland <http://education.okfn.org/open-education-holland/> and Tanzania
>> <http://education.okfn.org/open-education-tanzania/> are doing in this
>> area.
>>
>> In UK (where I am based) the ODI Data Challenge
>> <https://hackpad.com/Education-Open-Data-Challenge-kLW3ZeR98lj#>
>> mentioned by Ed has supported the development of some really great apps
>> built on open education data. The expression 'the best thing to done with
>> your data will be thought of by someone else' certainly holds true here.
>>
>> So, to use one of my personal much overused phrases, "all possibilities
>> still exist"!
>>
>> The matter of marketisation of learning is something for another day, but
>> for me it's a shifting area, especially when you think about countries
>> outside the global south.
>>
>> Anyway thanks again for your comments. Always great to hear.
>>
>> Marieke
>>
>> On 04/06/2014 12:47, Pat Lockley wrote:
>>
>> hear hear
>>
>>  And this is what I was going to say re Friday's chat. To me a lot of
>> the open data / open access arguments around openness are a lot more
>> neo-liberal / neo-con. So when we say traditional education, do we mean
>> before league tables? Or before licensing? Or before openness?
>>
>>  As an experiment, contrast our "Open" (if that thing exists) with
>> Corporate Openness (say
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil) and then
>> perhaps tie this to citzens united and the openness of lobbying
>> organisations.
>>
>>  Paraphrasing this quote "The society which scorns excellence in
>> plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy
>> because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good
>> philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water."
>>
>>  Because if we have a public openness and then allow a corporate
>> "closed" then the benefit of the openness looks to me like it is lost, or
>> worst, has the negative outcomes you'd expect to have once neo-liberal
>> competition kicks in.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Terry Loane <terryloane at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  For me there is a huge irony here.
>>>
>>> The very concept of open education is surely that people should be “free
>>> to use, reuse, and redistribute [resources]” (to quote from:
>>> http://booktype.okfn.org/open-education-handbook/_draft/_v/1.0/what-is-open/)
>>> Now this is the very opposite of a market approach to distributing goods
>>> and services. Marketisation of learning runs counter to open education
>>> because it is has to involve an assumption of privilege for those who
>>> access a particular resource/institution, which by definition will be
>>> scarce (e.g. an expensive textbook or an over-subscribed school.) The first
>>> paragraph of the quotation from Radu Cucos is a text-book, neo-liberal
>>> rationale for the market approach to schooling:
>>>
>>> "Each country has its own school market, if education is considered as a
>>> product in this market. Perfect information about products is one of the
>>> main characteristics of competitive markets. From this perspective, giving
>>> parents the opportunity to have access to information about schools
>>> characteristics will contribute to the increase in the competitiveness of
>>> the schools market. Educational institutions will have incentives to
>>> improve their performance in order to attract more students."
>>>
>>> Do we really believe that the idea of using 'open data' to ensure that
>>> our kids attend a better school than the ones next door who do not have
>>> access to such data is what open education should be about? Do we really
>>> believe the last sentence of the above quotation: "Educational institutions
>>> will have incentives to improve their performance in order to attract more
>>> students"? (The evidence in the UK is that publication and fetishizing of
>>> league tables can have a detrimental effect on learning because it focuses
>>> the attention of the institution on improving performance data rather than
>>> providing the best for each individual child.)
>>>
>>> I am also struck by the irony of using 'open data' to choose a school,
>>> because schools are such 'closed' institutions, in just about every sense
>>> of the word – I have blogged bout this recently here:
>>> http://terryloane.typepad.com/reallylearn/2014/03/why-are-schools-locked-shut-most-of-the-time.html
>>>
>>> Surely, surely open education should be about far more than just using
>>> performance data to try to get our kids into a better school than our less
>>> well informed neighbours.
>>>
>>> Terry Loane
>>>
>>> On 03/06/2014 16:02, Marieke Guy wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a great post on the Open Government Partnership blog about
>>> using open government data to help parents find the best school.
>>>
>>> http://www.opengovpartnership.org/blog/radu-cucos/2014/06/03/open-government-data-helping-parents-find-best-school-their-kids
>>>
>>> The post, by Radu Cucos from Moldova, lists several apps from different
>>> countries that have been built on government data related to education and
>>> education institutions. I'll be adding these to the Open Education
>>> Handbook
>>> <http://booktype.okfn.org/open-education-handbook/_draft/_v/1.0/open-data-use-cases/>
>>> .
>>>
>>> He concludes by saying:
>>>
>>> "Open data on schools has great value not only for parents but also for
>>> the educational system in general. Each country has its own school market,
>>> if education is considered as a product in this market. Perfect information
>>> about products is one of the main characteristics of competitive markets.
>>> From this perspective, giving parents the opportunity to have access to
>>> information about schools characteristics will contribute to the increase
>>> in the competitiveness of the schools market. Educational institutions will
>>> have incentives to improve their performance in order to attract more
>>> students.
>>>
>>> While adopting the Open Data Initiative policy in the education field
>>> has advantages for everybody – parents, schools and state authorities, it
>>> falls to governments to take the leading role in promoting Open Data. First
>>> of all, governments have to make sure that data on schools is being
>>> publicly released and regularly updated. Second, state institutions have to
>>> incentivize developers to create innovative apps. Third, governments have
>>> to increase demand for educational apps by raising awareness, lowering the
>>> costs for Open Data apps accessibility and decreasing the costs of
>>> accessing additional sources and information about schools."
>>>
>>> I'd be interested in hearing more about this from a country perspective.
>>> Anyone got any interesting use cases to share?
>>>
>>> We plan to have a community session on 'What has open data got to do
>>> with education' during June - details to follow.
>>>
>>> Marieke
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Marieke Guy
>>> LinkedUp <http://linkedup-project.eu/> Project Community Coordinator |
>>> skype: mariekeguy | tel: 44 (0) 1285 885681 | @mariekeguy
>>> <http://twitter.com/mariekeguy>
>>> The Open Knowledge <http://okfn.org/>
>>> *Empowering through Open Knowledge*
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>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Marieke Guy
>> LinkedUp <http://linkedup-project.eu/> Project Community Coordinator |
>> skype: mariekeguy | tel: 44 (0) 1285 885681 | @mariekeguy
>> <http://twitter.com/mariekeguy>
>> Open Knowledge <http://okfn.org/>
>> *Empowering through Open Knowledge*
>> http://okfn.org/ | @okfn <http://twitter.com/okfn>| OKF on Facebook |
>> Blog | Newsletter
>> http://remoteworker.wordpress.com
>>
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>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
>
> Marieke Guy
> LinkedUp <http://linkedup-project.eu/> Project Community Coordinator |
> skype: mariekeguy | tel: 44 (0) 1285 885681 | @mariekeguy
> <http://twitter.com/mariekeguy>
> Open Knowledge <http://okfn.org/>
> *Empowering through Open Knowledge*
> http://okfn.org/ | @okfn <http://twitter.com/okfn>| OKF on Facebook | Blog
> | Newsletter
> http://remoteworker.wordpress.com
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