[open-government] UK Government transparency update (and democracy?)

Fri Dec 10 21:15:18 UTC 2010

Because it's entirely possible to advocate for open access to government held datasets so that your commercial enterprise (or future commercial enterprise) can be (a) viable and/or (b) more profitable.  You don't have to believe in democracy, or that enabling greater access to government held datasets will facilitate greater participation or accountability.  You could quite easily believe in a minimalist vision of the state which merely regulates (with a light touch, of course) the provision of services by competing private enterprises.

Let's be clear that EU moves on re-use were stimulated by envy of the size of the information economy in the US, not because they had some great vision for enhanced public participation in the formulation of policy.

'Give us the Ordnance Survey digital mastermap' is about reducing the cost of inputs to boost profitability (with the idea that taxation of corporate profits will more than compensate for lost sales revenue that funded OS's data gathering); the fact that liberalising access to digital maps also enables FixMyStreet is beneficial externality.

At least, that's how I understand some of Paola's concerns.  Since I wasn't at the OGDCamp, I can't speak about control of the agenda etc.

Cheers,

Andrew

On 11 Dec 2010, at 9:31 AM, Roy Peled wrote:

Sorry guys, Im having a hard time understanding this post. Paola, can you please elaborate what it is exactly that you found disturbing. I myself cannot see how someonw can work to promote open-data and not see its implications in terms of accountability and democratic participation. It might be that he/she are in it for other reasons and the democratic aspect is not their *main* concern, so be it. But I can't see how they can be hostile to the idea of democracy, as if so - why release data to the demos?

So please try to explain what it is exactly that you heard or read that bothered you so we can better understand where the problem is if at all.

Thanks,

Roy

2010/12/10 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio at gmail.com>
Hi Dave!

thanks for reply

I actually think most people in the open government movement see open data and open government as reinforcing democracy... indeed, for many I think democracy is a presumed precondition for greater transparency

Of course, this is what I also thought, that's my point.

But based on conversations and email exchanges ( may send you a snip) some people who are riding the open government data wave do not believe in democracy at all, or rather, they believe its a 'nice idea that does not work'. Not only they avoid the subject, they avoid answering questions, expliciTly state that they do not have to be accountable to anyone,  make it plain that democracy is not part of their ethos.

Thats what put me on the alert a bit.

Perhaps we should organise a panel at the next OGDCamp - or other related events, (an open panel) to dig a bit deeper into various interesting aspects of the relationship between open data and democracy.

I am particulary interested in exploring  ' what mechanisms can monitor the uptake of democratic processes in relation to open government data initiatives' , that is, how do we know , for example, that everyone gets the chance to show their work, and inclusion in the open government agenda  is not engineered and orchestrated by an elite who decides who gets a slot to speak, and who does not?

A lot can be inferred by the organisational processes in place, and what arterfacts are used to share information and decision making (is a wiki actually open to all and used for planning? or is the wiki just used as a facade to show what someone behind the scene may have planned?)

Look forward to explore the topic further

PDM

. Moreover, the fact that TBL and others talk so much about the need for data journalists is a recognition that the data being liberated in of itself is not enough, we need a way to ensure that it gets into the regular discourse and empowers citizens of all stripes.

I'd love to see the clips/references you refer to as I really didn't get the same vibe out of OGDcamp at all - quite the opposite, really felt like most of the people in the room see themselves as advocates of democratic values.

cheers,
dave eaves

On 10-12-09 12:17 PM, Luigi Selmi wrote:
> 
> Hi Paola,
> I was at the OGDCamp in London but don't think to be the one that gave you a card since I do not have cards. It is true that the term 'democracy' doesn't come up very often when talking about transparency. Maybe it is because there are a lot of people that comes from governments and institutions that are more interested in the functioning of the current practices and do not pay attention to what happen outside, to all the events that send us signs of a crisis of the representative democracy. I live in Italy and we have been experimenting for more than 16 years all the issues about that. The last of these days is the of deputies' votes shopping to support the current government. We are at the far edge of the representative democracy crisis but also in the US and other western countries there are a lot of issues that come up every time and cannot be solved within the current model of democracy. We need transparency because we need the knowledge to       intervene every day not just to chose someone to go in the parliament.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> Luigi Selmi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 17:51:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and democracy?)
> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
> To: selmi_luigi at hotmail.com
> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
> 
> Luigi
> 
> I obviously agree with you, and became terrified when I found out that democracy, according to some working in the OGDCamp, is just an optional
> 
> (will send you a copy of the relevant snippets of email exchanges separately, if you are interested)
> 
> What some of us defend and uphold by default  - democratic principles and civil liberties as the foundation for good governance, including self-governance - does not  always seem to be reflected in the philosophy of current open government initiatives - quite the contrary, to my worry.
> 
> Democracy should never be taken for granted, but unfortunately  self organisation is sometimes used as an excuse to justify the chaos where  great inequalities, deliberate omissions and lack of democratic processes become hidden and take place without anyone noticing. 
> 
> Until we no longer can tell who is running the show, using what rules of the game.
> 
> Perhaps at the next Camp we should propose this topic for discussion,  and find a way to demand that the agenda is managed transparently and fairly.
> 
> I will analyse the ODGCamp corpus when its published to see if we find any instances of the word democracy that I may have missed on the day
> 
> PDM
> 
> (are you the Luigi who gave me his card? i am still going thru my notes, will catch up soon)
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Luigi Selmi <selmi_luigi at hotmail.com> wrote:
> If 'transparency of information' is not related to democracy I wonder why bother about it ? Open data and open government are steps towards a new kind of democracy, more partecipatory, something that goes beyond the representative democracy without falling into populism and plebiscitaniarism.
> 
> 
> Luigi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:09:17 +0000
> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
> To: javier at openrightsgroup.org
> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
> Subject: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and democracy?)
> 
> 
> Javier
> 
> thanks for the update
> 
> one the words that I have not seen come up much at the OGCAMP
> is 'democracy', in fact some people cringed when I dared mention it
> 
> Some 'activists' seem to take the view that 'democratic process' is not that much related
> to 'trasparency of information'
> 
> Let us know when you hear of something in that respect
> 
> cheers
> 
> PDM
> 
> 
> 
> 2010/12/7 Javier Ruiz Diaz <javier at openrightsgroup.org>
> Dear all
> 
> It seems they were listening during the OGD camp.
> 
> http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-cabinet-office/plans-performance/transparency-privacy-data.aspx
> 
> Tentatively good news, lets see the details in the next few days.
> 
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