[open-government] UK Government transparency update (and democracy?)

Fri Dec 10 21:19:19 UTC 2010

I realize some people are in it for the business benefits it might generate,
but I give them the credit of realizing its democratic implications. That's
why I am less alarmed. As I said, it might not be their *main* concern, but
I see not how it contradicts. They might not be the ones pushing for more
meaningful post-release obligations, visualization, education, etc... but
not everybody has to do everything. The question is would they damage the
open-data efforts somehow. I can see how that can happen, but think it is
highly unlikely. It would just be too transparent...

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 11:15 PM, Andrew Ecclestone
<andrew at ecclestone.net>wrote:

> Because it's entirely possible to advocate for open access to government
> held datasets so that your commercial enterprise (or future commercial
> enterprise) can be (a) viable and/or (b) more profitable.  You don't have to
> believe in democracy, or that enabling greater access to government held
> datasets will facilitate greater participation or accountability.  You could
> quite easily believe in a minimalist vision of the state which merely
> regulates (with a light touch, of course) the provision of services by
> competing private enterprises.
>
> Let's be clear that EU moves on re-use were stimulated by envy of the size
> of the information economy in the US, not because they had some great vision
> for enhanced public participation in the formulation of policy.
>
> 'Give us the Ordnance Survey digital mastermap' is about reducing the cost
> of inputs to boost profitability (with the idea that taxation of corporate
> profits will more than compensate for lost sales revenue that funded OS's
> data gathering); the fact that liberalising access to digital maps also
> enables FixMyStreet is beneficial externality.
>
> At least, that's how I understand some of Paola's concerns.  Since I wasn't
> at the OGDCamp, I can't speak about control of the agenda etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On 11 Dec 2010, at 9:31 AM, Roy Peled wrote:
>
> Sorry guys, Im having a hard time understanding this post. Paola, can you
> please elaborate what it is exactly that you found disturbing. I myself
> cannot see how someonw can work to promote open-data and not see its
> implications in terms of accountability and democratic participation. It
> might be that he/she are in it for other reasons and the democratic aspect
> is not their *main* concern, so be it. But I can't see how they can be
> hostile to the idea of democracy, as if so - why release data to the demos?
>
> So please try to explain what it is exactly that you heard or read that
> bothered you so we can better understand where the problem is if at all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Roy
>
> 2010/12/10 Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio at gmail.com>
>
>> Hi Dave!
>>
>> thanks for reply
>>
>>>
>>> I actually think most people in the open government movement see open
>>> data and open government as reinforcing democracy... indeed, for many I
>>> think democracy is a presumed precondition for greater transparency
>>>
>>
>> Of course, this is what I also thought, that's my point.
>>
>> But based on conversations and email exchanges ( may send you a snip) some
>> people who are riding the open government data wave do not believe in
>> democracy at all, or rather, they believe its a 'nice idea that does not
>> work'. Not only they avoid the subject, they avoid answering questions,
>> expliciTly state that they do not have to be accountable to anyone,  make it
>> plain that democracy is not part of their ethos.
>>
>> Thats what put me on the alert a bit.
>>
>> Perhaps we should organise a panel at the next OGDCamp - or other related
>> events, (an open panel) to dig a bit deeper into various interesting aspects
>> of the relationship between open data and democracy.
>>
>> I am particulary interested in exploring  ' what mechanisms can monitor
>> the uptake of democratic processes in relation to open government data
>> initiatives' , that is, how do we know , for example, that everyone gets the
>> chance to show their work, and inclusion in the open government agenda  is
>> not engineered and orchestrated by an elite who decides who gets a slot to
>> speak, and who does not?
>>
>> A lot can be inferred by the organisational processes in place, and what
>> arterfacts are used to share information and decision making (is a wiki
>> actually open to all and used for planning? or is the wiki just used as a
>> facade to show what someone behind the scene may have planned?)
>>
>> Look forward to explore the topic further
>>
>>
>> PDM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> . Moreover, the fact that TBL and others talk so much about the need for
>>> data journalists is a recognition that the data being liberated in of itself
>>> is not enough, we need a way to ensure that it gets into the regular
>>> discourse and empowers citizens of all stripes.
>>>
>>> I'd love to see the clips/references you refer to as I really didn't get
>>> the same vibe out of OGDcamp at all - quite the opposite, really felt like
>>> most of the people in the room see themselves as advocates of democratic
>>> values.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> dave eaves
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10-12-09 12:17 PM, Luigi Selmi wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Paola,
>>> I was at the OGDCamp in London but don't think to be the one that gave
>>> you a card since I do not have cards. It is true that the term 'democracy'
>>> doesn't come up very often when talking about transparency. Maybe it is
>>> because there are a lot of people that comes from governments and
>>> institutions that are more interested in the functioning of the current
>>> practices and do not pay attention to what happen outside, to all the events
>>> that send us signs of a crisis of the representative democracy. I live in
>>> Italy and we have been experimenting for more than 16 years all the issues
>>> about that. The last of these days is the of deputies' votes shopping to
>>> support the current government. We are at the far edge of the representative
>>> democracy crisis but also in the US and other western countries there are a
>>> lot of issues that come up every time and cannot be solved within the
>>> current model of democracy. We need transparency because we need the
>>> knowledge to intervene every day not just to chose someone to go in the
>>> parliament.
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>>
>>>
>>> Luigi Selmi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 17:51:17 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and
>>> democracy?)
>>> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
>>> To: selmi_luigi at hotmail.com
>>> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>>>
>>> Luigi
>>>
>>>  I obviously agree with you, and became terrified when I found out that
>>> democracy, according to some working in the OGDCamp, is just an optional
>>>
>>>  (will send you a copy of the relevant snippets of email exchanges
>>> separately, if you are interested)
>>>
>>>  What some of us defend and uphold by default  - democratic principles
>>> and civil liberties as the foundation for good governance, including
>>> self-governance - does not  always seem to be reflected in the philosophy of
>>> current open government initiatives - quite the contrary, to my worry.
>>>
>>>  Democracy should never be taken for granted, but unfortunately  self
>>> organisation is sometimes used as an excuse to justify the chaos where
>>>  great inequalities, deliberate omissions and lack of democratic processes
>>> become hidden and take place without anyone noticing.
>>>
>>>  Until we no longer can tell who is running the show, using what rules
>>> of the game.
>>>
>>>  Perhaps at the next Camp we should propose this topic for discussion,
>>>  and find a way to demand that the agenda is managed transparently and
>>> fairly.
>>>
>>>  I will analyse the ODGCamp corpus when its published to see if we find
>>> any instances of the word democracy that I may have missed on the day
>>>
>>>  PDM
>>>
>>>  (are you the Luigi who gave me his card? i am still going thru my
>>> notes, will catch up soon)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Luigi Selmi <selmi_luigi at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>  If 'transparency of information' is not related to democracy I wonder
>>> why bother about it ? Open data and open government are steps towards a new
>>> kind of democracy, more partecipatory, something that goes beyond the
>>> representative democracy without falling into populism and
>>> plebiscitaniarism.
>>>
>>>
>>> Luigi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:09:17 +0000
>>> From: paola.dimaio at gmail.com
>>> To: javier at openrightsgroup.org
>>> CC: open-government at lists.okfn.org
>>> Subject: [open-government] UK Government transparency update (and
>>> democracy?)
>>>
>>>
>>> Javier
>>>
>>> thanks for the update
>>>
>>>  one the words that I have not seen come up much at the OGCAMP
>>> is 'democracy', in fact some people cringed when I dared mention it
>>>
>>>  Some 'activists' seem to take the view that 'democratic process' is not
>>> that much related
>>> to 'trasparency of information'
>>>
>>>  Let us know when you hear of something in that respect
>>>
>>>  cheers
>>>
>>>  PDM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/12/7 Javier Ruiz Diaz <javier at openrightsgroup.org>
>>>
>>>  Dear all
>>>
>>>  It seems they were listening during the OGD camp.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-cabinet-office/plans-performance/transparency-privacy-data.aspx
>>>
>>>  Tentatively good news, lets see the details in the next few days.
>>>
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