[wsfii-discuss] Confusion on Hive and Spontaneous Networking.

Sat Jul 15 15:12:39 UTC 2006

I do feel  that many of us share the wishes, needs and visions.

Alejo's RSS example is very good as an illustration of part of the SNets 
and what can provide.

Now I've googled on "Spontaneous Networking" and oh surprise: This isn't 
also a new! Which expression haven't been used yet in the internet era?

However I've got the impression that it's still on the track, the 
spontaneous word itself defines about what we're discussing about, 
having self-extending/configuring capabilities etc...

Going forward on this, I tried to clarify the architecture by going 
deeper on it. Pls read 
http://summit.airjaldi.com/wiki/index.php/Spontaneous.Net.Platform
It's important to be able to provide examples so we do need enablers, 
which can apps using XML interfaces, and the context. We can't describe 
anything on XML if we don't put it in context.

A global mapping app certainly can be a good start.

I'm going a be offline for about a week starting this monday. That might 
help me in refreshing my head.

En/na kdag ha escrit:
> ermm ei im/was enjoying the discussion, specially cause i might be my
> self something close to be one of the many spontaneus/hive actors that
> are  being theorized and defined..[medellinwireless and altred]...as a
> lab sample, as a lab mouse, if i where allowed to speak up i will say
> that ramon is right in the sense of calling the moding drive of
> hive-network propjects to appear as kindda technical "drifts" from
> that what he defines for a Snetwork as a socio-cultural manifestation
> based on appropiated technologies that grows exponentially (being that
> one of the basic characteristics of a community wireless project)...i
> reckon that both as maybe all in here are far more interested in how
> to bridge this networks today, call them S or H,  how to share
> content, know-how and resources.
>
> Im very interested in how to get our local project to be influenced
> and touched in realtime by stuff that happens at the other end of the
> planet.therefore i have been trying to lear how to use streaming video
> more and more and have already customized an Openwrt firmware to allow
> video clips.
>
> RSS is a way, the captive portal is another, the OLSR-viz maps or even
> a firmware hack including them all might be a trick.
>
> how are this bridges going to be implemented? im postive that we will
> see few examples soon.
>
> /alejo
>
>
> On 7/13/06, Ramon Roca <ramon.roca at guifi.net> wrote:
>> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
>> > On 13 Jul 06, at 13:49, Ramon Roca wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> mmmm, ok. So yes, I was just introducing confusion by using the name
>> >> hive (in the bio-metaphor way, I'm a mid-sixties guy xD) and by 
>> simply
>> >> underlying "spontaneous networking" will help to better understand 
>> the
>> >> concept. And spontaneous networking is a new one :)
>> >> If by hive networking is understood just as some devices which are
>> >> capable of changing its firmware and must have a given number of 
>> network
>> >> interfaces, that definitely doesn't matches very well with what we 
>> are
>> >> trying to communicate with the SNP.
>> >>
>> >
>> > maybe i missed something then and I need to know more what you
>> > mean by spontaneous networking. what i meant with 2 network
>> > interfaces was just condition for any network, technically. what hive
>> > is about, as I understand, is to bring together wireless community
>> > networking with local content. people have been building wireless
>> > community networks for some years now, in some cases very
>> > successfully, but ofthen the focus is mainly creating the network as
>> > such. the community network is then a sort of access ramp to the
>> > global internet. other people wanted to emphasise more the
>> > communication within the free wireless infrastructure and this is what
>> > hive is about, people providing services for each other with networks
>> > which can easily be built on the fly. bt maybe this conversation is
>> > starting to bore other people on this list and we should continue in
>> > direct communication if we want. to my opinion the correspondence
>> > between cultural/social and technical network is always a tricky issue
>> > cheers
>> > a.
>> >
>> Ups... or maybe I was who missed something! xD
>> This definition of hive is much closer of what I was thinking on.
>> I've no problems with private conversations, but when talking about
>> private things. The best way to kill an open discussion is to switch to
>> private messages, so I was interested on a discussion list.
>> My apologies if this is off topic here, I thought that it wasn't.
>> If there is another list to have this discussion just let me know which
>> or we can always create a new one.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ramon.
>>
>> >
>> >> To refer to a given place where someone wants to startup a local
>> >> community and the problematic of vertebrating it, solving the 
>> critical
>> >> mass problems etc, we still can call it community.
>> >> For the concept of a single all wi-fi interconnected network at a 
>> medium
>> >> to large-scale (I mean, larger than a single AP-wLan), I've also 
>> heard
>> >> the word "Wireless Island"
>> >>
>> >> Many thanks to all, I appreciate.
>> >> Ramon.
>> >>
>> >> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
>> >>
>> >>> On 13 Jul 06, at 14:20, Ramon Roca wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> mmm, interesting, I like the concept of "Hivewares" as sensors in
>> >>>> Pervasive Computing where are able to easily do certain things, but
>> >>>> thinking on this... but well, even an "acme" webcam can 
>> broadcast video
>> >>>> over ip and does it out-of-the-box. The only difference I can 
>> see with a
>> >>>> specialized firmware is that could be open-source or more flexible?
>> >>>> Can't the acme webcam become part of a hive?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> if you can re-programme it to do other things and if it has two
>> >>> network interfaces, yes.
>> >>> but let me say something else, the guys who are doing hive networks
>> >>> are my friends and I admire their skills and commitment. however, I
>> >>> find the name unfortunate. biological metaphors are so mid-nineties.
>> >>> then these concepts came out of MIT and such places and there was
>> >>> and is a certain ideology connected to it, like: hive networks, 
>> where
>> >>> science of complexity meets neo-liberalism. only read Out of Control
>> >>> by Kevin Kelly to see what I mean. I hope the free community can
>> >>> come up with better slogans, better names and not somehow
>> >>> replicate what the think tanks of swarm capitalism have already
>> >>> proposed
>> >>> best
>> >>> Armin
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Anyway, to build the hive, besides of the specialized capability 
>> hidding
>> >>>> complexity, which is always good, the "hivegadgets" have to publish
>> >>>> their capabilities over the network because if not, they are 
>> really not
>> >>>> available to the network participants or either to other 
>> "hivegadgets"
>> >>>> if is M2M. In today's world that doesn't occurs so I think that 
>> this
>> >>>> answer can only come complemented by the appropiate XML 
>> interfaces and
>> >>>> the Spontaneous Data Hubs and Services... without this I can't 
>> imagine a
>> >>>> single magic firmware totally autonomous doing all the things 
>> unless we
>> >>>> reduce the concept of the hive to a single firmware-centric 
>> implementation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I assume that a "hiveware" can also be a mapping server which 
>> assembles
>> >>>> the hive OpenGIS GML information (http://www.opengis.net/gml/) 
>> with a
>> >>>> backround map provided by an external public WFS Server (
>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Feature_Service ) to display 
>> the hive
>> >>>> over a geography... and that has few relationship with a given 
>> firmware...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'll keep on this way. IMHO rather than being contradictory, 
>> I'm  just
>> >>>> filling gaps.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thx for keeping me updated. Just let me know if you think that 
>> could be
>> >>>> better to stop me of using this terminology.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Ramon,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I like the questions which you are addressing, they are important
>> >>>>> ones. My thoughts went into a similar direction when I wrote 
>> this text
>> >>>>> about hive networks about 9 months ago.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://theoriebild.ung.at/view/Main/HiveNetworks
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The more critical parts come at the end. there are no 
>> 'solutions' or
>> >>>>> easy fixes but maybe there are interesting questions and boring
>> >>>>> questions to ask.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I took quite some care to make the text accessible to geeks and 
>> non-
>> >>>>> geeks alike. however, technology has once more overtaken the slow
>> >>>>> process of reflection. hive networkers have meanwhile began the
>> >>>>> switch from Oleg's firmware to OpenWRT which should make it
>> >>>>> easier for more developers to join in. A new hive wiki with better
>> >>>>> documentation is under development but as far as I know has not 
>> yet
>> >>>>> been opend for public participation. I will keep you posted
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> best
>> >>>>> Armin
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 13 Jul 06, at 10:39, Ramon Roca wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> As I said the other day, I dumped many things which were on my 
>> brain,
>> >>>>>> taking lessons on our experiences and visions about the 
>> Spontaneous
>> >>>>>> Networking.
>> >>>>>> Now is time to think twice on that, discussion, better 
>> elaborate some
>> >>>>>> concepts. The goal is to make it clear, if not, you know, just 
>> more
>> >>>>>> smoke on the field.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Please I will appreciate comments on the following. By 
>> googling saw
>> >>>>>> "hive networks" I've got the impression that some of the 
>> people related
>> >>>>>> to wsfii (Julian, etc...) have been using this vocabulary 
>> earlier. I
>> >>>>>> just want to be consistent and not provide more confusion if 
>> there are
>> >>>>>> already some adopted definitions.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The real goal must be helping en everyone's projects roadmap, 
>> certainly
>> >>>>>> at least does in what we're doing at guifi, so help us to 
>> evolve the
>> >>>>>> concepts we've working on in the last months.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm sorry, but I saw the expression "hive networking" just two 
>> days ago.
>> >>>>>> Since that I was thinking on that expression because might 
>> help a lot in
>> >>>>>> defining some of the concepts we need to describe for 
>> vertebrating
>> >>>>>> networks. A "hive" could mean something which provides 
>> robustness to the
>> >>>>>> local communities, solving density and critical mass problems, 
>> I mean,
>> >>>>>> Spontaneous Networking is not only about scalability, more 
>> than this is
>> >>>>>> about the ability to supply resources to the new "hives" in 
>> order to
>> >>>>>> give them more chances for survival when they are in their 
>> critical
>> >>>>>> path, and as long as they mature and get established, create 
>> new paths
>> >>>>>> for creating new ones to boost enhance the others. That is a 
>> concept,
>> >>>>>> and said in this way, very complementary to the spontaneous 
>> networking.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> But by googling "hive networks" I just have discovered that in 
>> this case
>> >>>>>> is not a new concept and some of you have already worked on 
>> this. There
>> >>>>>> is also a wiki site hivenetworks.net! But by my first 
>> (diagonal) look
>> >>>>>> into this, I'm not sure that the term is being used in the 
>> same way as
>> >>>>>> understanding it. I.e. at hivenetworks.net I've got the 
>> impression that
>> >>>>>> after talking about a very abstract concept ("hive blobs"), goes
>> >>>>>> straight to talk about a very "gadget" oriented things 
>> (firmwares,
>> >>>>>> packages, etc....). Gadgets for sure are needed, are basic! 
>> However I
>> >>>>>> don't see what's really new on this, there is just a need to 
>> keep going
>> >>>>>> on with them and getting better, we might have dozens now and 
>> we might
>> >>>>>> have hundreds in the future, some could get unsused, new ones 
>> might
>> >>>>>> appear...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So I miss something there. The hive/spontaneous approach have 
>> to be
>> >>>>>> something else than just describing resources, is also about 
>> enabling
>> >>>>>> the capabilities to them for spontaneously working together, 
>> that is
>> >>>>>> building the hive. For sure anything pluggable into an IP 
>> network is
>> >>>>>> already by definition able to extend something, but by having 
>> just that,
>> >>>>>> isn't that only about just networking in general? what about 
>> solving the
>> >>>>>> critical mass problems and building the hives?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Comments welcome :)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>
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