[wsfii-discuss] Confusion on Hive and Spontaneous Networking.

Sat Jul 15 17:23:24 UTC 2006

Hi Ramon,
Refreshing the head is always a good idea :-)
Thanks for all your work on the wiki!
Fred

On 7/15/06, Ramon Roca <ramon.roca at guifi.net> wrote:
>
> I do feel  that many of us share the wishes, needs and visions.
>
> Alejo's RSS example is very good as an illustration of part of the SNets
> and what can provide.
>
> Now I've googled on "Spontaneous Networking" and oh surprise: This isn't
> also a new! Which expression haven't been used yet in the internet era?
>
> However I've got the impression that it's still on the track, the
> spontaneous word itself defines about what we're discussing about,
> having self-extending/configuring capabilities etc...
>
> Going forward on this, I tried to clarify the architecture by going
> deeper on it. Pls read
> http://summit.airjaldi.com/wiki/index.php/Spontaneous.Net.Platform
> It's important to be able to provide examples so we do need enablers,
> which can apps using XML interfaces, and the context. We can't describe
> anything on XML if we don't put it in context.
>
> A global mapping app certainly can be a good start.
>
> I'm going a be offline for about a week starting this monday. That might
> help me in refreshing my head.
>
>
> En/na kdag ha escrit:
> > ermm ei im/was enjoying the discussion, specially cause i might be my
> > self something close to be one of the many spontaneus/hive actors that
> > are  being theorized and defined..[medellinwireless and altred]...as a
> > lab sample, as a lab mouse, if i where allowed to speak up i will say
> > that ramon is right in the sense of calling the moding drive of
> > hive-network propjects to appear as kindda technical "drifts" from
> > that what he defines for a Snetwork as a socio-cultural manifestation
> > based on appropiated technologies that grows exponentially (being that
> > one of the basic characteristics of a community wireless project)...i
> > reckon that both as maybe all in here are far more interested in how
> > to bridge this networks today, call them S or H,  how to share
> > content, know-how and resources.
> >
> > Im very interested in how to get our local project to be influenced
> > and touched in realtime by stuff that happens at the other end of the
> > planet.therefore i have been trying to lear how to use streaming video
> > more and more and have already customized an Openwrt firmware to allow
> > video clips.
> >
> > RSS is a way, the captive portal is another, the OLSR-viz maps or even
> > a firmware hack including them all might be a trick.
> >
> > how are this bridges going to be implemented? im postive that we will
> > see few examples soon.
> >
> > /alejo
> >
> >
> > On 7/13/06, Ramon Roca <ramon.roca at guifi.net> wrote:
> >> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
> >> > On 13 Jul 06, at 13:49, Ramon Roca wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> mmmm, ok. So yes, I was just introducing confusion by using the name
> >> >> hive (in the bio-metaphor way, I'm a mid-sixties guy xD) and by
> >> simply
> >> >> underlying "spontaneous networking" will help to better understand
> >> the
> >> >> concept. And spontaneous networking is a new one :)
> >> >> If by hive networking is understood just as some devices which are
> >> >> capable of changing its firmware and must have a given number of
> >> network
> >> >> interfaces, that definitely doesn't matches very well with what we
> >> are
> >> >> trying to communicate with the SNP.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > maybe i missed something then and I need to know more what you
> >> > mean by spontaneous networking. what i meant with 2 network
> >> > interfaces was just condition for any network, technically. what hive
> >> > is about, as I understand, is to bring together wireless community
> >> > networking with local content. people have been building wireless
> >> > community networks for some years now, in some cases very
> >> > successfully, but ofthen the focus is mainly creating the network as
> >> > such. the community network is then a sort of access ramp to the
> >> > global internet. other people wanted to emphasise more the
> >> > communication within the free wireless infrastructure and this is what
> >> > hive is about, people providing services for each other with networks
> >> > which can easily be built on the fly. bt maybe this conversation is
> >> > starting to bore other people on this list and we should continue in
> >> > direct communication if we want. to my opinion the correspondence
> >> > between cultural/social and technical network is always a tricky issue
> >> > cheers
> >> > a.
> >> >
> >> Ups... or maybe I was who missed something! xD
> >> This definition of hive is much closer of what I was thinking on.
> >> I've no problems with private conversations, but when talking about
> >> private things. The best way to kill an open discussion is to switch to
> >> private messages, so I was interested on a discussion list.
> >> My apologies if this is off topic here, I thought that it wasn't.
> >> If there is another list to have this discussion just let me know which
> >> or we can always create a new one.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Ramon.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> To refer to a given place where someone wants to startup a local
> >> >> community and the problematic of vertebrating it, solving the
> >> critical
> >> >> mass problems etc, we still can call it community.
> >> >> For the concept of a single all wi-fi interconnected network at a
> >> medium
> >> >> to large-scale (I mean, larger than a single AP-wLan), I've also
> >> heard
> >> >> the word "Wireless Island"
> >> >>
> >> >> Many thanks to all, I appreciate.
> >> >> Ramon.
> >> >>
> >> >> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 13 Jul 06, at 14:20, Ramon Roca wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> mmm, interesting, I like the concept of "Hivewares" as sensors in
> >> >>>> Pervasive Computing where are able to easily do certain things, but
> >> >>>> thinking on this... but well, even an "acme" webcam can
> >> broadcast video
> >> >>>> over ip and does it out-of-the-box. The only difference I can
> >> see with a
> >> >>>> specialized firmware is that could be open-source or more flexible?
> >> >>>> Can't the acme webcam become part of a hive?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> if you can re-programme it to do other things and if it has two
> >> >>> network interfaces, yes.
> >> >>> but let me say something else, the guys who are doing hive networks
> >> >>> are my friends and I admire their skills and commitment. however, I
> >> >>> find the name unfortunate. biological metaphors are so mid-nineties.
> >> >>> then these concepts came out of MIT and such places and there was
> >> >>> and is a certain ideology connected to it, like: hive networks,
> >> where
> >> >>> science of complexity meets neo-liberalism. only read Out of Control
> >> >>> by Kevin Kelly to see what I mean. I hope the free community can
> >> >>> come up with better slogans, better names and not somehow
> >> >>> replicate what the think tanks of swarm capitalism have already
> >> >>> proposed
> >> >>> best
> >> >>> Armin
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Anyway, to build the hive, besides of the specialized capability
> >> hidding
> >> >>>> complexity, which is always good, the "hivegadgets" have to publish
> >> >>>> their capabilities over the network because if not, they are
> >> really not
> >> >>>> available to the network participants or either to other
> >> "hivegadgets"
> >> >>>> if is M2M. In today's world that doesn't occurs so I think that
> >> this
> >> >>>> answer can only come complemented by the appropiate XML
> >> interfaces and
> >> >>>> the Spontaneous Data Hubs and Services... without this I can't
> >> imagine a
> >> >>>> single magic firmware totally autonomous doing all the things
> >> unless we
> >> >>>> reduce the concept of the hive to a single firmware-centric
> >> implementation.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I assume that a "hiveware" can also be a mapping server which
> >> assembles
> >> >>>> the hive OpenGIS GML information (http://www.opengis.net/gml/)
> >> with a
> >> >>>> backround map provided by an external public WFS Server (
> >> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Feature_Service ) to display
> >> the hive
> >> >>>> over a geography... and that has few relationship with a given
> >> firmware...
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'll keep on this way. IMHO rather than being contradictory,
> >> I'm  just
> >> >>>> filling gaps.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Thx for keeping me updated. Just let me know if you think that
> >> could be
> >> >>>> better to stop me of using this terminology.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> En/na Armin Medosch ha escrit:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Hi Ramon,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I like the questions which you are addressing, they are important
> >> >>>>> ones. My thoughts went into a similar direction when I wrote
> >> this text
> >> >>>>> about hive networks about 9 months ago.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> http://theoriebild.ung.at/view/Main/HiveNetworks
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The more critical parts come at the end. there are no
> >> 'solutions' or
> >> >>>>> easy fixes but maybe there are interesting questions and boring
> >> >>>>> questions to ask.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I took quite some care to make the text accessible to geeks and
> >> non-
> >> >>>>> geeks alike. however, technology has once more overtaken the slow
> >> >>>>> process of reflection. hive networkers have meanwhile began the
> >> >>>>> switch from Oleg's firmware to OpenWRT which should make it
> >> >>>>> easier for more developers to join in. A new hive wiki with better
> >> >>>>> documentation is under development but as far as I know has not
> >> yet
> >> >>>>> been opend for public participation. I will keep you posted
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> best
> >> >>>>> Armin
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On 13 Jul 06, at 10:39, Ramon Roca wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> As I said the other day, I dumped many things which were on my
> >> brain,
> >> >>>>>> taking lessons on our experiences and visions about the
> >> Spontaneous
> >> >>>>>> Networking.
> >> >>>>>> Now is time to think twice on that, discussion, better
> >> elaborate some
> >> >>>>>> concepts. The goal is to make it clear, if not, you know, just
> >> more
> >> >>>>>> smoke on the field.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Please I will appreciate comments on the following. By
> >> googling saw
> >> >>>>>> "hive networks" I've got the impression that some of the
> >> people related
> >> >>>>>> to wsfii (Julian, etc...) have been using this vocabulary
> >> earlier. I
> >> >>>>>> just want to be consistent and not provide more confusion if
> >> there are
> >> >>>>>> already some adopted definitions.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The real goal must be helping en everyone's projects roadmap,
> >> certainly
> >> >>>>>> at least does in what we're doing at guifi, so help us to
> >> evolve the
> >> >>>>>> concepts we've working on in the last months.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I'm sorry, but I saw the expression "hive networking" just two
> >> days ago.
> >> >>>>>> Since that I was thinking on that expression because might
> >> help a lot in
> >> >>>>>> defining some of the concepts we need to describe for
> >> vertebrating
> >> >>>>>> networks. A "hive" could mean something which provides
> >> robustness to the
> >> >>>>>> local communities, solving density and critical mass problems,
> >> I mean,
> >> >>>>>> Spontaneous Networking is not only about scalability, more
> >> than this is
> >> >>>>>> about the ability to supply resources to the new "hives" in
> >> order to
> >> >>>>>> give them more chances for survival when they are in their
> >> critical
> >> >>>>>> path, and as long as they mature and get established, create
> >> new paths
> >> >>>>>> for creating new ones to boost enhance the others. That is a
> >> concept,
> >> >>>>>> and said in this way, very complementary to the spontaneous
> >> networking.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> But by googling "hive networks" I just have discovered that in
> >> this case
> >> >>>>>> is not a new concept and some of you have already worked on
> >> this. There
> >> >>>>>> is also a wiki site hivenetworks.net! But by my first
> >> (diagonal) look
> >> >>>>>> into this, I'm not sure that the term is being used in the
> >> same way as
> >> >>>>>> understanding it. I.e. at hivenetworks.net I've got the
> >> impression that
> >> >>>>>> after talking about a very abstract concept ("hive blobs"), goes
> >> >>>>>> straight to talk about a very "gadget" oriented things
> >> (firmwares,
> >> >>>>>> packages, etc....). Gadgets for sure are needed, are basic!
> >> However I
> >> >>>>>> don't see what's really new on this, there is just a need to
> >> keep going
> >> >>>>>> on with them and getting better, we might have dozens now and
> >> we might
> >> >>>>>> have hundreds in the future, some could get unsused, new ones
> >> might
> >> >>>>>> appear...
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> So I miss something there. The hive/spontaneous approach have
> >> to be
> >> >>>>>> something else than just describing resources, is also about
> >> enabling
> >> >>>>>> the capabilities to them for spontaneously working together,
> >> that is
> >> >>>>>> building the hive. For sure anything pluggable into an IP
> >> network is
> >> >>>>>> already by definition able to extend something, but by having
> >> just that,
> >> >>>>>> isn't that only about just networking in general? what about
> >> solving the
> >> >>>>>> critical mass problems and building the hives?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Comments welcome :)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>> wsfii-discuss mailing list
> >> >>>>>> wsfii-discuss at lists.okfn.org
> >> >>>>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wsfii-discuss
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>
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> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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