[iRail] Close encounters with NMBS and De Lijn

[Sander Deryckere]

I didn't contact the NMBS, I only contacted De Lijn. But I guess that De
Lijn and the NMBS have the same concerns.

2010/12/6 Jan Fabry <jan.fabry at monkeyman.be>

> I would like to send the following mail to De Lijn, please comment. Because
> the final mail will be in Dutch I only added a rough translation. I would
> like to send this mail by tomorrow.
>
>
> Beste,
>
> Graag had ik met u van gedachten gewisseld over het hergebruik van uw
> reisinformatie door derden. Mijn motivatie komt uit het iRail-project, dat
> dit voorlopig met NMBS-data doet, maar breder wilt gaan naar alle vormen van
> openbaar vervoer, in meerdere landen. De samenwerking met de NMBS loopt niet
> altijd even gemakkelijk, onder andere omdat het moeilijk is elkaar te
> overtuigen van de goede bedoelingen en de garanties op kwaliteit die
> iedereen nauw aan het hart liggen.
>
> Uit een eerdere communicatie die u met Sander Deryckere in het kader van
> het OpenStreetMap-project hebt gehad, heb ik begrepen dat dit voor u nu ook
> de grootste bekommernissen zijn: kwaliteit en aansprakelijkheid. Omdat OSM
> inderdaad een meer statisch gegeven is, denk ik dat we voor het
> iRail-verhaal (en andere meer dynamische toepassingen) minder problemen
> zullen hebben, en dat het er vooral op zal aankomen hoe we duidelijk aan de
> gebruiker communiceren wie waarvoor verantwoordelijk is.
>
> Persoonlijk ben ik ook sterk geïnteresseerd in de data van De Lijn, omdat
> er hier nog een hoop informatie is (bijvoorbeeld actuele rittijden en
> vertragingen) die wel al een hele tijd verzameld wordt maar nog niet altijd
> gemakkelijk bij iedereen kan geraken. Omdat bussen en trams in een veel
> dynamischer systeem opereren, zou een grotere beschikbaarheid van deze data
> veel onzekerheid wegnemen die nu mensen ervan weerhoudt om de bus te nemen.
> Maar ik denk niet dat ik u moet overtuigen van het potentieel van deze data.
>
> Ik zie dit verhaal ook in het kader van het i-Vlaanderen project, waarin
> men in het algemeen ICT en overheidsinformatie wilt gebruiken om innovatie
> en gebruiksgemak te bevorderen. Ik weet niet of er ook een afgevaardigde van
> De Lijn aanwezig zal zijn op de komende rondetafel, of op "Open
> Gov"-conferentie de dagen ervoor?
>
> Vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Jan Fabry
>
>
> Rough translation:
>
> Greetings,
>
> I would like to talk to you about re-use of travel information. My
> background is in the iRail-project, that currently does this with NMBS-data,
> but wants to expand to other forms of public transport and other countries.
> The co-operation with the NMBS isn't always fluent, amongst other reasons
> because it is hard to convince each other of the good intentions and quality
> issues we all care about.
>
> From a previous communication I understood these are concerns of you too.
> Because OSM is more static, I think we will have less issues with iRail and
> other dynamic applications, and the main issue will be clear communication
> to the end-user about responsibilities and liabilities.
>
> Personally I like the data from De Lijn, because there is a lot of data
> that is currently collected that does not easily get to the end-user (delay
> info for example). Because busses and trams operate in a more dynamic
> environment, more information like this could convince people to use the bus
> more. But of course I don't need to convince you about the potential of this
> data.
>
> I also see this story in the framework of the i-Vlaanderen project, that
> wants to use ICT and public service information to stimulate innovation and
> usability. Will there be a representative of De Lijn present at the
> roundtable or the "Open Gov"-conference in the preceding days?
>
> Greetings,
>
> Jan Fabry
>
>
> On 05 Dec 2010, at 11:17, Sander Deryckere wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > My contacts with de lijn were unsuccessful. The problem was indeed that
> de lijn wanted to be sure the user achieved accurate data. OSM could not
> guarantee that, so de lijn did not answer to our question.  The second
> problem with OSM for de lijn was that OSM could not host the timetables,
> only the geographical information. Maybe this problem will be solved when
> transiki gets launched.
> >
> > I don't know if peter dedecker is already an iRail member, but if he
> isn't, he is a politician with an open IT mind, he might be able to help you
> with lobbying.
> >
> >
> >> Op 4 dec 2010 17:39 schreef "Jan Fabry" <jan.fabry at monkeyman.be>:
> >>
> >> Hello iRail members,
> >> Hello Sander and Bart (please read on to know why you got this mail
> too),
> >>
> >> Today I briefly spoke with Roger Kesteloot, director-general of De Lijn,
> and Sabin s'Heeren, director NMBS Mobility, at the VVS congress about
> (student) mobility.
> >>
> >> The main concern when sharing data is always quality. They want to be
> sure that the information the customer receives is of high quality. This was
> the reason the NMBS wanted to stop iRail: they try to make their own route
> planner as advanced as possible, with extra information about delays,
> splitting trains, work info, ... iRail scrapes this site, but if to does not
> parse (or even breaks) on the extra information, the end user will not get
> the full message from the NMBS, possibly resulting in incorrect information
> and an unhappy customer. And when the user stands on a cold and deserted
> platform, will they blame iRail for giving incorrect information, or the
> NMBS? Remember it was a customer complaint to the NMBS about the iRail
> website that resulted in the cease-and-desist letter.
> >>
> >> Keeping that in mind, mr. s'Heeren did not see the sharing of
> information as something that is by default impossible. Some strategic
> information will never be shared, because the NMBS will face competition in
> the domestic market in the future (think 2015-2020). Examples are the more
> "technical" information, like the turnaround times of vehicles, staffing
> etc. But sharing "customer-facing" info would be less of a problem: he gave
> the example of TomTom, which would like to integrate train schedules with
> GPS navigation, so if you wanted to go to Brussels your GPS device might
> direct you to the train station instead of the nearest highway. This would
> have to be non-commercial use: TomTom would not make extra money for
> offering NMBS info. It is also controlled with an agreement between TomTom
> and the NMBS, so quality can be more or less guaranteed.
> >>
> >> For these reasons, the NMBS and Infrabel are working on some form of
> data sharing. Mr. s'Heeren of course did not have much technical info on it,
> but I assume it would be a situation where you get a (not necessarily
> paying!) contract with the NMBS and they provide routing info via an API.
> This is not the same as just an open data dump of the timetables and a feed
> of delay info, and it would be limited by the need for a contract.
> >>
> >> They do not see a need for further data sharing, because they already
> offer multiple ways themselves: the regular and mobile websites, SMS, the
> iPhone and Android apps, ...
> >>
> >>
> >> De Lijn seems to be a step further: they already have some way of data
> sharing, they do this for no payment in case of non-commercial use, and I
> was suggested to contact Filip Brutsaert, sales manager (and Stubru
> listener? [ http://www.stubru.be/user/24539 ]). Apparently Sander
> Deryckere already contacted him (or his department) with the same question,
> but then for OpenStreetMap [
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.imports/270 ]. I
> read some promising things in that mail, and I would like to know whether
> Sander replied, so I put him in CC. Dynamic data like timetables are not a
> good match for static data like the OSM map, so not all issues might apply
> to us.
> >>
> >> De Lijn currently offers a widget, but also requires an agreement to use
> it on your site. If you read the terms [
> http://www.delijn.be/images/algemene_voorwaarden_gebruik_plug_in_tcm7-16532.pdf], you notice that you can't use it in a commercial environment because
> their agreement with NAVTEQ does not allow it. However, I assume the
> NAVTEQ-data is only used for the walking directions, so this is probably a
> surmountable problem.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, Bart Van Loon from The DataTank had an unsuccessful
> meeting with De Lijn a few months ago. I also CC'ed him so he can tell us
> what happened there.
> >>
> >>
> >> I would like to explore the "De Lijn"-route further. We have the
> i-Vlaanderen roundtable coming up, and De Lijn is a simpler organization:
> smaller, mono-lingual, falling under a broader freedom of information act
> and an acting government. If we can open up data from De Lijn, this will set
> an example for the NMBS for how to do this with the community. Remember that
> the MIVB also has a working API, and Michaël Uyttersprot created an Android
> application together with them. Does anyone know more about that?
> >>
> >>
> >> Greetings,
> >>
> >> Jan Fabry
> >>
> >
>
>
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