[iRail] Close encounters with NMBS and De Lijn

Mon Dec 6 09:41:47 UTC 2010

I would like to send the following mail to De Lijn, please comment. Because the final mail will be in Dutch I only added a rough translation. I would like to send this mail by tomorrow.

Beste,

Graag had ik met u van gedachten gewisseld over het hergebruik van uw reisinformatie door derden. Mijn motivatie komt uit het iRail-project, dat dit voorlopig met NMBS-data doet, maar breder wilt gaan naar alle vormen van openbaar vervoer, in meerdere landen. De samenwerking met de NMBS loopt niet altijd even gemakkelijk, onder andere omdat het moeilijk is elkaar te overtuigen van de goede bedoelingen en de garanties op kwaliteit die iedereen nauw aan het hart liggen.

Uit een eerdere communicatie die u met Sander Deryckere in het kader van het OpenStreetMap-project hebt gehad, heb ik begrepen dat dit voor u nu ook de grootste bekommernissen zijn: kwaliteit en aansprakelijkheid. Omdat OSM inderdaad een meer statisch gegeven is, denk ik dat we voor het iRail-verhaal (en andere meer dynamische toepassingen) minder problemen zullen hebben, en dat het er vooral op zal aankomen hoe we duidelijk aan de gebruiker communiceren wie waarvoor verantwoordelijk is.

Persoonlijk ben ik ook sterk geïnteresseerd in de data van De Lijn, omdat er hier nog een hoop informatie is (bijvoorbeeld actuele rittijden en vertragingen) die wel al een hele tijd verzameld wordt maar nog niet altijd gemakkelijk bij iedereen kan geraken. Omdat bussen en trams in een veel dynamischer systeem opereren, zou een grotere beschikbaarheid van deze data veel onzekerheid wegnemen die nu mensen ervan weerhoudt om de bus te nemen. Maar ik denk niet dat ik u moet overtuigen van het potentieel van deze data.

Ik zie dit verhaal ook in het kader van het i-Vlaanderen project, waarin men in het algemeen ICT en overheidsinformatie wilt gebruiken om innovatie en gebruiksgemak te bevorderen. Ik weet niet of er ook een afgevaardigde van De Lijn aanwezig zal zijn op de komende rondetafel, of op "Open Gov"-conferentie de dagen ervoor?

Vriendelijke groeten,

Jan Fabry

Rough translation:

Greetings,

I would like to talk to you about re-use of travel information. My background is in the iRail-project, that currently does this with NMBS-data, but wants to expand to other forms of public transport and other countries. The co-operation with the NMBS isn't always fluent, amongst other reasons because it is hard to convince each other of the good intentions and quality issues we all care about.

From a previous communication I understood these are concerns of you too. Because OSM is more static, I think we will have less issues with iRail and other dynamic applications, and the main issue will be clear communication to the end-user about responsibilities and liabilities.

Personally I like the data from De Lijn, because there is a lot of data that is currently collected that does not easily get to the end-user (delay info for example). Because busses and trams operate in a more dynamic environment, more information like this could convince people to use the bus more. But of course I don't need to convince you about the potential of this data.

I also see this story in the framework of the i-Vlaanderen project, that wants to use ICT and public service information to stimulate innovation and usability. Will there be a representative of De Lijn present at the roundtable or the "Open Gov"-conference in the preceding days?

Greetings,

Jan Fabry

On 05 Dec 2010, at 11:17, Sander Deryckere wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> My contacts with de lijn were unsuccessful. The problem was indeed that de lijn wanted to be sure the user achieved accurate data. OSM could not guarantee that, so de lijn did not answer to our question.  The second problem with OSM for de lijn was that OSM could not host the timetables, only the geographical information. Maybe this problem will be solved when transiki gets launched.
> 
> I don't know if peter dedecker is already an iRail member, but if he isn't, he is a politician with an open IT mind, he might be able to help you with lobbying.
> 
> 
>> Op 4 dec 2010 17:39 schreef "Jan Fabry" <jan.fabry at monkeyman.be>:
>> 
>> Hello iRail members,
>> Hello Sander and Bart (please read on to know why you got this mail too),
>> 
>> Today I briefly spoke with Roger Kesteloot, director-general of De Lijn, and Sabin s'Heeren, director NMBS Mobility, at the VVS congress about (student) mobility.
>> 
>> The main concern when sharing data is always quality. They want to be sure that the information the customer receives is of high quality. This was the reason the NMBS wanted to stop iRail: they try to make their own route planner as advanced as possible, with extra information about delays, splitting trains, work info, ... iRail scrapes this site, but if to does not parse (or even breaks) on the extra information, the end user will not get the full message from the NMBS, possibly resulting in incorrect information and an unhappy customer. And when the user stands on a cold and deserted platform, will they blame iRail for giving incorrect information, or the NMBS? Remember it was a customer complaint to the NMBS about the iRail website that resulted in the cease-and-desist letter.
>> 
>> Keeping that in mind, mr. s'Heeren did not see the sharing of information as something that is by default impossible. Some strategic information will never be shared, because the NMBS will face competition in the domestic market in the future (think 2015-2020). Examples are the more "technical" information, like the turnaround times of vehicles, staffing etc. But sharing "customer-facing" info would be less of a problem: he gave the example of TomTom, which would like to integrate train schedules with GPS navigation, so if you wanted to go to Brussels your GPS device might direct you to the train station instead of the nearest highway. This would have to be non-commercial use: TomTom would not make extra money for offering NMBS info. It is also controlled with an agreement between TomTom and the NMBS, so quality can be more or less guaranteed.
>> 
>> For these reasons, the NMBS and Infrabel are working on some form of data sharing. Mr. s'Heeren of course did not have much technical info on it, but I assume it would be a situation where you get a (not necessarily paying!) contract with the NMBS and they provide routing info via an API. This is not the same as just an open data dump of the timetables and a feed of delay info, and it would be limited by the need for a contract.
>> 
>> They do not see a need for further data sharing, because they already offer multiple ways themselves: the regular and mobile websites, SMS, the iPhone and Android apps, ...
>> 
>> 
>> De Lijn seems to be a step further: they already have some way of data sharing, they do this for no payment in case of non-commercial use, and I was suggested to contact Filip Brutsaert, sales manager (and Stubru listener? [ http://www.stubru.be/user/24539 ]). Apparently Sander Deryckere already contacted him (or his department) with the same question, but then for OpenStreetMap [ http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.imports/270 ]. I read some promising things in that mail, and I would like to know whether Sander replied, so I put him in CC. Dynamic data like timetables are not a good match for static data like the OSM map, so not all issues might apply to us.
>> 
>> De Lijn currently offers a widget, but also requires an agreement to use it on your site. If you read the terms [ http://www.delijn.be/images/algemene_voorwaarden_gebruik_plug_in_tcm7-16532.pdf ], you notice that you can't use it in a commercial environment because their agreement with NAVTEQ does not allow it. However, I assume the NAVTEQ-data is only used for the walking directions, so this is probably a surmountable problem.
>> 
>> On the other hand, Bart Van Loon from The DataTank had an unsuccessful meeting with De Lijn a few months ago. I also CC'ed him so he can tell us what happened there.
>> 
>> 
>> I would like to explore the "De Lijn"-route further. We have the i-Vlaanderen roundtable coming up, and De Lijn is a simpler organization: smaller, mono-lingual, falling under a broader freedom of information act and an acting government. If we can open up data from De Lijn, this will set an example for the NMBS for how to do this with the community. Remember that the MIVB also has a working API, and Michaël Uyttersprot created an Android application together with them. Does anyone know more about that?
>> 
>> 
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> Jan Fabry
>> 
> 