[od-discuss] [open-government] Advice on Open Dataset Terms & Conditions in Hong Kong

Bill Proudfit bill.proudfit at gmail.com
Thu Jul 25 01:31:44 UTC 2013 

Hi Tomo,

Thank-you for your response.  I've made a few comments below.

Best regards,

Bill


On 25 July 2013 01:27, Tomoaki Watanabe <tomoaki.watanabe at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello.
>
> Let me try to crack at another question you asked:
>
> What steps could be taken to get governments to follow these guidelines?
>
> 1) How about an analysis on the relation between the policy goals for the
> HK's "open data" efforts and this Terms and Conditions? Is open data just
> about increasing transparency? If gaining economic benefits for
> HK is among the goals, then making the T&Cs more user-friendly
> would make sense.
> http://www.gov.hk/en/theme/psi/freqaskedquestions/#q2 seems to suggest
> that HK open data is, like many others, about promoting reuse.
>
> Even if the transparency is the only goal, some visualization and other
> manipulation can contribute the public's understanding
> of otherwise complex data and issues. Openspending.org probably
> illustrates this point well. Quite a few data portals has a section on
> Apps using the data. Showing some of those may give government
> officials some idea on the potential of more permissive conditions.
>

The government department, OGCIO - Office of the Government's Chief
Information Officer, hosts the Data.One site and rather loudly touts the
economic benefits of the datasets they make available with statements like "
*All datasets are free-of-charge for commercial or non-commercial
re-use!" *  Here
is what the 'About' page says:

*Data.One* is a portal to facilitate the wider dissemination of Public
Sector Information (PSI) for value-added re-use.

We believe that PSI is not only a valuable source of reference, but may
also generate valuable applications.  Facilitating value-added re-use of
PSI will be conducive to the development of Hong Kong as a knowledge-based
economy.

All data on this portal are freely downloadable and re-usable and some are
in XML format for convenient data transfer and processing by computers.
 Please refer to the Terms and Conditions of
Use<http://www.gov.hk/en/theme/psi/terms_conditions/> for
more details.

We cordially invite you to visit *Data.One* and explore the portal in
greater depth!

I suspect the the Terms & Conditions are drawn up by the government's legal
department without too much, if any input, from people who understand how
open data should be released and licensed.  I'm not convinced the OGCIO
Data.One team has a completely clear understanding of what open data is and
how it should be presented and made available to the public.  The team is
enthusiastic and wants to provide a service to the public.


> 2) how about giving some feedback from potential users, like a
> local geek/hacker community regarding the terms& conditions?
> I know in some areas, Open Knowledge Foundation,
> Wikimedia, Creative Commons, and/ or open source communities
> work together in providing opinions and other inputs to the government.
> Are you in touch with any of them?
>
> We are in touch with the OGCIO Data.One team and the Legislative Council
member responsible for the IT sector.  As a first step, we've contacted the
Legislative Council member who is looking into this issue about Terms &
Conditions.  I've met with the OGCIO Data.One twice and have regular email
contact.  I've not raised this issue with the team yet as I'm waiting for
response from the Legislative Council member.  He is quite supportive of
open data issues.



> 3) Does HK government care about how other governments are doing?
> Then explaining OGL 2.0 or some other open data licenses may work.
>

I would suspect the HK government is somewhat interested in what other
governments are doing.  The Data.One initiative was set-up at the same time
as many municipalities around the world were setting up open data sites,
2011 - 2012.  As a comment, it seems to me that the HK government set up
its Data.One site without much, if any, expert advice.   The site was a
pilot and in the past few months was approved as a permanent part of the
OGCIO services to the public.  We may be able to use this decision as some
leverage to improve on the T&C.


> Best,
>
> Tomo
>  OKF Japan/ Creative Commons Japan/ GLOCOM
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Bill Proudfit <bill.proudfit at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> > To clear up where Hong Kong sits in the Chinese legal framework.
> >
> > We are a 'special administrative region of the People's Republic of
> China.
> > Hong Kong law is based on British Common Law even now 16 years after our
> > return to the motherland.  Laws are written in English and English is
> used
> > for all interpretive purposes by courts, i.e. Chinese translations are
> only
> > provided only for convenience.  Just to be clear mainland Chinese law
> only
> > applies in Hong Kong within very narrow confines of what is called 'the
> > Basic Law', sometimes referred to euphemistically as a mini-constitution.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 23 July 2013 20:17, Brian Gryth <briangryth at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Andrew,
> >>
> >> I don't disagree, but these terms maybe a reflection of Chinese law. As
> I
> >> am not an expert I can't make further comment on the particulars.
> >>
> >> Could you expand on your indemnity comment? Is your concern related to
> >> Data.One's indemnity clause? Or is your concern with indemnity in
> general?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Brian
> >>
> >> Sent from my Incredible 4G
> >>
> >> On Jul 23, 2013 5:09 AM, "Andrew Stott" <andrew.stott at dirdigeng.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Bill
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for drawing these Terms and Conditions for the Hong Kong
> Data.One
> >>> site to our attention.  We regularly discuss whether licences for
> government
> >>> data conform to the Open Definition (http://opendefinition.org/) on
> the
> >>> od-discuss list.  Of course, Data is not Open Data unless it is Open.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I agree with you that the Terms and Conditions for the Hong Kong
> Data.One
> >>> site do not seem to conform with the Open Definition, and so the data
> could
> >>> not be considered “open data”. Particularly problematical are:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (1) the requirement for any re-distribution of the data to be “in its
> >>> original format” and “reproduced … accurately”.  This looks like a “no
> >>> derivatives” provision, which would prevent the data from being Open.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (2) the ban on the sale of the data – “sale of any Data by you is
> >>> absolutely prohibited in all circumstances”.  This conflicts with the
> Open
> >>> Definition, and there are a number of use cases  and business models
> (eg
> >>> Data Curation, service-level guaranteed APIs, information-giving
> >>> applications, Value-Added processing) where charges may well be made
> even
> >>> though the downstream customer could still obtain the raw data
> directly and
> >>> free of charge from the government.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (3) the clauses limiting “unpleasant” uses of the data – this means
> that
> >>> that data cannot be freely reused, and these matters should be handled
> >>> through the normal law and its enforcement rather than through
> licensing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The provision for the indemnity by the user to the government for the
> use
> >>> of data supplied by the government is also problematical.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> More widely, the problem here seems to be that the terms and conditions
> >>> do not seem to envisage the sort of use cases which have been proven in
> >>> other jurisdictions to give economic and social value and to generate
> >>> business innovation.  Open Data is about reuse of data, not just
> access to
> >>> it.  The no-derivatives requirement and the ban on the sale of the data
> >>> together would make the development of a vibrant applications market
> >>> practically impossible.  So what are the Hong Kong Government’s other
> policy
> >>> objectives here?!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Andrew Stott
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org
> >>> [mailto:open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org] On Behalf Of Bill
> Proudfit
> >>> Sent: 23 July 2013 01:42
> >>> To: open-government at lists.okfn.org; od-discuss at lists.okfn.org; Mart
> van
> >>> de Ven
> >>> Subject: [open-government] Advice on Open Dataset Terms & Conditions in
> >>> Hong Kong
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The HK Government has the Data.One site with about 1,500 or so
> datasets.
> >>> I'm interested to know if the terms & conditions covering these
> datasets are
> >>> within the range of variation of the terms and conditions of other
> >>> governmental open dataset sites.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Here is the link to the HK terms & conditions.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.gov.hk/en/theme/psi/terms_conditions/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The Open Data Handbook has this guidance on licenses.  I'm taking
> >>> licenses to mean the same as terms & conditions.   It seems to me that
> the
> >>> HK Data.One site's terms & conditions are not in step with these
> guidelines.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is it common for locations to have opendata sites which do not meet
> these
> >>> guidelines?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What steps could be taken to get governments to follow these
> guidelines?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://opendatahandbook.org/en/how-to-open-up-data/apply-an-open-license.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Any guidance or suggestion would be great.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bill
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Bill Proudfit
> >>> 鮑偉霖
> >>> Hong Kong
> >>> baoman.wordpress.com
> >>> www.linkedin.com/in/proudfit
> >>> twitter ~ baoman
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> open-government mailing list
> >>> open-government at lists.okfn.org
> >>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
> >>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-government
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bill Proudfit
> > 鮑偉霖
> > Hong Kong
> > baoman.wordpress.com
> > www.linkedin.com/in/proudfit
> > twitter ~ baoman
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > open-government mailing list
> > open-government at lists.okfn.org
> > http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-government
> > Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-government
> >
>



-- 
Bill Proudfit
鮑偉霖
Hong Kong
baoman.wordpress.com
www.linkedin.com/in/proudfit
twitter ~ baoman
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