[od-discuss] OD v2 accepts Excel as OpenData?!???
Aaron Wolf
wolftune at gmail.com
Fri Nov 7 17:28:30 UTC 2014
Pierre,
You can still say that Excel format is not an open format and is not ideal.
And you can say that the Excel software itself is not Free/Libre/Open. All
these things are unchanged.
The only thing you cannot say under ODv2 is "this is not open data because
you're publishing it in a closed format". And you know what? If the data is
actually totally usable in LibreOffice, then we're pretty much ok in terms
of access and freedoms with the data.
"an open format (i.e., a format with a freely available published
specification which places no restrictions, monetary or otherwise, upon its
use) or, at the very least, can be processed with at least one
free/libre/open-source software tool."
Says very clearly that the latter clause is only "at the very least" and is
not an "open format". So it does *not* say that Excel is fine and
comparable. It just says that being in Excel format is not a sufficient
problem to break the Open definition.
I said this earlier: insisting otherwise would be like saying that
something isn't free software just because it runs on a proprietary OS.
Sorry, but LibreOffice on Windows is still free software and open data in
Excel format openable with LibreOffice is still open data. Windows is still
awful and proprietary and so is Excel format.
--
Aaron Wolf
wolftune.com
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Pierre Chrzanowski <
pierre.chrzanowski at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A problem I see with this added rule is that it opens the Open Definition
> to interpretation on format, making it less clear, as exemplified by this
> discussion, and at the end, less powerful in regard to its objective and
> usefulness.
>
> Before, I could use the Open Definition as, let's say an authority
> argument, alongside my explanation on why it is important to use open
> format - and it is ! - or use it to support people criticizing the use of
> excel format - on data.gov.uk for instance [1].
>
> But now I can't.
> This is a major regression to me.
>
>
>
> [1]
> http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2014/09/microsoft-gets-flack-over-rubb-8.html
>
>
>
>
> On Fri Oct 31 2014 at 8:35:44 PM Aaron Wolf <wolftune at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Indeed, to summarize my points as clearly as possible:
>>
>> OD v2 does NOT *endorse* Excel format. Period.
>>
>> OD v2 *does* say that Excel format *if* shown to be *perfectly* usable in
>> LibreOffice is not so objectionable that the whole data set is no longer
>> considered to be "Open".
>>
>> There is *nothing* about OD v2 that says that the Excel format is Open.
>> We do NOT consider Excel to be an Open format! We remain *perfectly* free
>> to criticize people for using this clearly non-Open format.
>>
>> I disagree with those suggesting that *data* which meets all the OD v2
>> details and is *fully* usable in LibreOffice is somehow not Open data just
>> because it is published in a non-Open format.
>>
>> That suggestion is comparable to saying that some software is not
>> Free/Libre/Open software because it runs on Microsoft Windows. Nothing
>> about acknowledging the FLO nature of some Windows software implies that
>> Windows is FLO. Nothing about that acknowledgement implies that we endorse
>> software being Windows-only. There remains no good reason (and a lot of
>> reasons against) denying FLO status to otherwise FLO software that runs on
>> Windows.
>>
>> State one more time: ODv2 does NOT say that Excel is an Open format. It
>> says only that *data* being in Excel format is not sufficient for the
>> *data* to lose status as being Open Data.
>>
>> I personally agree completely that we *want* all software to run on
>> GNU/Linux (in fact, I would like all Windows software to die), and that we
>> want all data in Open formats. But if your software runs on Windows or your
>> data is in Excel, I still *prefer* that the software be FLO and the data be
>> Open, and that is feasible.
>>
>> I think the critiques against ODv2 in this case are based on the
>> *erroneous* inference that ODv2 is saying that anything openable in
>> LibreOffice is itself an Open format. It does not say that. It just says
>> that being in a proprietary format that is readily freeable doesn't itself
>> make the *data* non-Open.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Aaron
>>
>> P.S. Maybe someone can take what turned out to be not-so-concise and
>> highlight just the key bits of what I wrote above… sorry… :P
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Wolf
>> wolftune.com
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 31 October 2014 14:42, Brice Person <brice at ideeslibres.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I think a lot of Open Data activists around the world have been basing
>>>> their advocacy onto these *very* important rules from the V1 (my case).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear more here. Has a major piece of advocacy
>>> around open data with specific governments been excel vs csv (or is it
>>> about csv vs pdf)?
>>>
>>> To be clear, I'm strongly in favour of open formats but as Aaron and
>>> others have explained there is also a question of what we want the
>>> definition and conception of open to be, in particular if our aim is to
>>> ensure that everyone has freedom to use, reuse and redistribute, that seems
>>> reasonably well provided for.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Besides, maybe some of them did not notice this important issue while
>>>> only being discussed on this list. Would it be possible to consult more
>>>> widely the opinion of the community on this ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Understood and we are discussing now :-)
>>>
>>> Rufus
>>>
>>>
>>>> If I could vote, I would agree to replace the "or" by an "and".
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Brice Person
>>>>
>>>> Le 27/10/2014 21:56, Tangui Morlier a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> The "Or" proposition is indeed really problematic. Considering this
>>>>> part, as DRMs are accessible via reverse engineering through some
>>>>> free/libre softwares, they are considered ok with the Open
>>>>> Definition...
>>>>>
>>>>> Just relying on the courageous developers who took strong legal risks
>>>>> to
>>>>> make those closed formats accessible within some free softwares should
>>>>> not be a sufficient argument to consider anything open : as a reminder,
>>>>> Microsoft sued developpers to have released the pieces of code to read
>>>>> Excel files
>>>>> (<http://www.computerworld.com/article/2545166/open-source-
>>>>> tools/microsoft--desperate---says-patent-complaint-target-openoffice-
>>>>> org.html>)
>>>>> or access Samba shared resources
>>>>> (<http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-antitrust-offering-blocks-
>>>>> samba-3039202482/>).
>>>>> And it's not the only proprietary software company to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> As nearly every proprietary format has been reversed engineered by the
>>>>> free software communities, keeping this clause has the consequence of
>>>>> including anything, whatever the format, as compatible with the open
>>>>> definition (when it respects the other conditions of the OD course).
>>>>> This consequences sound totally crazy to us all.
>>>>>
>>>>> We strongly advocate to change this problematic sentence. An easy fix
>>>>> to
>>>>> solve the bug, if not removing the whole or and after part, could be to
>>>>> simply replace the "or" with an "and".
>>>>>
>>>>> Tangui for Regards Citoyens
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 07/10/2014 18:42, Rufus Pollock a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7 October 2014 15:14, Benjamin Ooghe-Tabanou <b.ooghe at gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:b.ooghe at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello there,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel guilty for not having taken the time earlier to
>>>>>> participate in
>>>>>> the drafting process but I was assuming the principles of the
>>>>>> old v1
>>>>>> and the 10 principles would always keep in line. Although, I
>>>>>> believe
>>>>>> it could have been nice before releasing anything to send the
>>>>>> final
>>>>>> draft to the various okfn mailing-lists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although, just reading the first part of the v2, I'm really
>>>>>> alarmed by
>>>>>> point 1.3 on the formats. The sentence ends with: open format OR
>>>>>> "at
>>>>>> the very least, can be processed with at least one
>>>>>> free/libre/open-source software tool"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So basically, since you can open it within LibreOffice, data in
>>>>>> excel
>>>>>> formats will be considered as Open according to the
>>>>>> OpenDefinition v2!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming that it is also: machine-readable, bulk and openly licensed,
>>>>>> then yes I think that is the current reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a real step backwards which sounds really in total
>>>>>> disagreement with everything that we all stand for and have been
>>>>>> fighting for in the past few years, whether during the re-PSI
>>>>>> debates
>>>>>> at the EU Parliament or in our respective countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First off, let me say that I'm, personally, a very strong supporter of
>>>>>> open formats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question here is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - What should the Open Definition be setting as the standard - e.g. if
>>>>>> people can access data with free/open/libre tools and the data is
>>>>>> machine-readable, bulk and openly licensed is that enough (for
>>>>>> example,
>>>>>> that would mean that anyone could immediately turn that data in a
>>>>>> proprietary form into an open form)
>>>>>> - Is the push for open (document) standards related to but separate
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the open definition?
>>>>>> - Is the definition of the open format really that clear (and does it
>>>>>> really get enforced - e.g. there's a lot of "excel" open data out
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> from gov). Will it require us to provide a list of approved open
>>>>>> formats? (If so can we do that?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I should say my inclination now that this is highlighted - and I
>>>>>> confess
>>>>>> I somewhat passed over this during review - is that we should remove
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "or" option but I'm trying to highlight reasons to think carefully.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In such condition, I personnally (and I guess Regards Citoyens as
>>>>>> well) won't be able to use the OD as a reference anymore or only
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> v1, and probably get back to the good old 10 principles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I must say I really do not understand how such a piece of
>>>>>> sentence
>>>>>> could have appear there, it really looks a lot alike Microsoft's
>>>>>> amendments when the EU Parliament was defining machine readable
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> reusable. I can only imagine this was a way to include all those
>>>>>> official datasets published on national catalogs in Excel, but
>>>>>> if such
>>>>>> I believe we really do not want these to be considered as
>>>>>> OpenData.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's good to make clear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are to the contrary our best advocacy examples to point to
>>>>>> governments and make them understand why they have to switch from
>>>>>> formatted spreadsheet to actual data as csv. Including them in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> standards won't help anyone!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the point had been to try to capture the spirit was that
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> should have freedom to access and the existence of a free/libre/open
>>>>>> tool should allow that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can only hope this can still be changed and will be towards a
>>>>>> v2.0.1. Hope I'm not the only one!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for raising this important point and let's discuss this and
>>>>>> revise if appropriate and agreed :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rufus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Benjamin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Rufus Pollock
>>>>>> <rufus.pollock at okfn.org <mailto:rufus.pollock at okfn.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> > Hi All,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The v2.0 announce has gone live as planned. Announce text is
>>>>>> below
>>>>>> if people
>>>>>> > want to forward and can also be found in "source" form near the
>>>>>> top of the
>>>>>> > announce doc.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In terms of online post, we have:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [Herb/Rufus/Susanne] PR + Open Knowledge Blog
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [Tim] Creative Commons Blog
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [Herb] Government of Canada Blog
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [Andrew] World Bank Blog
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Let me know when you've posted and we can tweet etc.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In terms of mailing lists we have a list at the top of the
>>>>>> announce doc. I'm
>>>>>> > crossing off the ones I've done so far.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Huge well done to everyone and bigs thanks, especially to Mike
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Herb who
>>>>>> > have been the Chairs during this process and who have done an
>>>>>> immense amount
>>>>>> > to get us to this point.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Rufus
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Online at:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> http://blog.okfn.org/2014/10/07/open-definition-v2-0-releas
>>>>>> ed-major-update-of-essential-standard-for-open-data-and-open-content/
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ANN: Open Definition v2.0 Released - Major Update of Essential
>>>>>> Standard for
>>>>>> > Open Data and Open Content
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Today Open Knowledge and the Open Definition Advisory Council
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> pleased to
>>>>>> > announce the release of version 2.0 of the Open Definition. The
>>>>>> Definition
>>>>>> > “sets out principles that define openness in relation to data
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> content”
>>>>>> > and plays a key role in supporting the growing open data
>>>>>> ecosystem.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Recent years have seen an explosion in the release of open
>>>>>> data by
>>>>>> dozens of
>>>>>> > governments including the G8. Recent estimates by McKinsey put
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> potential
>>>>>> > benefits of open data at over $1 trillion and others estimates
>>>>>> put
>>>>>> benefits
>>>>>> > at more than 1% of global GDP.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > However, these benefits are at significant risk both from
>>>>>> quality
>>>>>> problems
>>>>>> > such as “open-washing” (non-open data being passed off as open)
>>>>>> and from
>>>>>> > fragmentation of the open data ecosystem due to incompatibility
>>>>>> between the
>>>>>> > growing number of “open” licenses.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Open Definition eliminates these risks and ensures we
>>>>>> realize
>>>>>> the full
>>>>>> > benefits of open by guaranteeing quality and preventing
>>>>>> incompatibility.
>>>>>> > See this recent post for more about why the Open Definition is
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> important.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Created in 2005, this new version of the Open Definition is
>>>>>> the most
>>>>>> > significant revision in the Definition’s nearly ten-year
>>>>>> history and
>>>>>> > reflects more than a year of discussion and consultation with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> community
>>>>>> > including input from experts involved in open data, open
>>>>>> access, open
>>>>>> > culture, open education, open government, and open source. As
>>>>>> well as major
>>>>>> > revisions to the text there is a new process for reviewing
>>>>>> licenses which
>>>>>> > has been trialled with major governments including the UK.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The Open Definition was published in 2005 by Open Knowledge
>>>>>> and is
>>>>>> > maintained today by an expert Advisory Council. This new
>>>>>> version
>>>>>> of the Open
>>>>>> > Definition is the most significant revision in the
>>>>>> Definition’s nearly
>>>>>> > ten-year history.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It reflects more than a year of discussion and consultation
>>>>>> with the
>>>>>> > community including input from experts involved in open data,
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> access,
>>>>>> > open culture, open education, open government, and open source.
>>>>>> Whilst there
>>>>>> > are no changes to the core principles, the Definition has been
>>>>>> completely
>>>>>> > reworked with a new structure and revised text as well as a new
>>>>>> process for
>>>>>> > reviewing licenses (which has been trialled with governments
>>>>>> including the
>>>>>> > UK).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Herb Lainchbury, Chair of the Open Definition Advisory
>>>>>> Council, said:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ‘The Open Definition describes the principles that define
>>>>>> “openness” in
>>>>>> > relation to data and content, and is used to assess whether a
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> > licence meets that standard. A key goal of this new version
>>>>>> is to
>>>>>> make it
>>>>>> > easier to assess whether the growing number of open licenses
>>>>>> actually make
>>>>>> > the grade. The more we can increase everyone’s confidence in
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> use of
>>>>>> > open works, the more they will be able to focus on creating
>>>>>> value
>>>>>> with open
>>>>>> > works.’
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Rufus Pollock, President and Founder of Open Knowledge said:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ‘Since we created the Open Definition in 2005 it has played a
>>>>>> key
>>>>>> role in
>>>>>> > the growing open data and open content communities. It acts as
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ‘gold
>>>>>> > standard’ for open data and content guaranteeing quality and
>>>>>> preventing
>>>>>> > incompatibility. As a standard, the Open Definition plays a key
>>>>>> role in
>>>>>> > underpinning the ‘open knowledge economy’ with a potential
>>>>>> value
>>>>>> that runs
>>>>>> > into the hundreds of billions - or even trillions - worldwide.’
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What’s New
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > In process for more than a year, the new version was
>>>>>> collaboratively and
>>>>>> > openly developed with input from experts involved in open
>>>>>> access, open
>>>>>> > culture, open data, open education, open government, open
>>>>>> source
>>>>>> and wiki
>>>>>> > communities. The new version of the definition:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Has a complete rewrite of the core principles - preserving
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> meaning but
>>>>>> > using simpler language and clarifying key aspects.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Introduces a clear separation of the definition of an open
>>>>>> license
>>>>>> from an
>>>>>> > open work (with the latter depending on the former). This not
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> > simplifies the conceptual structure but provides a proper
>>>>>> definition of open
>>>>>> > license and makes it easier to “self-assess” licenses for
>>>>>> conformance with
>>>>>> > the Open Definition.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The definition of an Open Work within the Open Definition is
>>>>>> now a
>>>>>> set of
>>>>>> > three key principles:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Open License: The work must be available under an open license
>>>>>> (as
>>>>>> defined
>>>>>> > in the following section but this includes freedom to use,
>>>>>> build
>>>>>> on, modify
>>>>>> > and share).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Access: The work shall be available as a whole and at no more
>>>>>> than a
>>>>>> > reasonable one-time reproduction cost, preferably downloadable
>>>>>> via the
>>>>>> > Internet without charge
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Open Format: The work must be provided in a convenient and
>>>>>> modifiable form
>>>>>> > such that there are no unnecessary technological obstacles to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > performance of the licensed rights. Specifically, data should
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> > machine-readable, available in bulk, and provided in an open
>>>>>> format or, at
>>>>>> > the very least, can be processed with at least one
>>>>>> free/libre/open-source
>>>>>> > software tool.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Includes improved license approval process to make it easier
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> license
>>>>>> > creators to check conformance of their license with the Open
>>>>>> Definition and
>>>>>> > to encourage reuse of existing open licenses (rrareuse and
>>>>>> outlines the
>>>>>> > process for submitting a license so that it can be checked for
>>>>>> conformance
>>>>>> > against the Open Definition.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > More Information
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > For more information about the Open Definition including the
>>>>>> updated version
>>>>>> > visit: http://opendefinition.org/
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > For background on why the Open Definition matters, read the
>>>>>> recent article
>>>>>> > ‘Why the Open Definition Matters’
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > od-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> > od-discuss at lists.okfn.org <mailto:od-discuss at lists.okfn.org>
>>>>>> > https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/od-discuss
>>>>>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/od-discuss
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> od-discuss mailing list
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>>>>>> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/od-discuss
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/od-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ****
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Rufus Pollock**
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Founder and President | skype: rufuspollock | @rufuspollock
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/rufuspollock>**
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Open Knowledge <http://okfn.org/>- s**ee how data can change the
>>>>>> world
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ****http://okfn.org/| @okfn <http://twitter.com/OKFN>| Open
>>>>>> Knowledge on
>>>>>> Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/OKFNetwork>| Blog
>>>>>> <http://blog.okfn.org/>***
>>>>>> _
>>>>>> _
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Open Knowledge Foundation is a not-for-profit organisation. It is
>>>>>> incorporated in England & Wales as a company limited by guarantee,
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> company number 05133759. VAT Registration № GB 984404989. Registered
>>>>>> office address: Open Knowledge Foundation, St John’s Innovation
>>>>>> Centre,
>>>>>> Cowley Road, Cambridge, CB4 0WS, UK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> od-discuss mailing list
>>>>> od-discuss at lists.okfn.org
>>>>> https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/od-discuss
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/od-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> @bjperson
>>>> http://www.IdeesLibres.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Rufus PollockFounder and President | skype: rufuspollock |
>>> @rufuspollock <https://twitter.com/rufuspollock>Open Knowledge
>>> <http://okfn.org/> - see how data can change the world**http://okfn.org/
>>> <http://okfn.org/> | @okfn <http://twitter.com/OKFN> | Open Knowledge on
>>> Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/OKFNetwork> | Blog
>>> <http://blog.okfn.org/>*
>>>
>>> The Open Knowledge Foundation is a not-for-profit organisation. It is
>>> incorporated in England & Wales as a company limited by guarantee, with
>>> company number 05133759. VAT Registration № GB 984404989. Registered
>>> office address: Open Knowledge Foundation, St John’s Innovation Centre,
>>> Cowley Road, Cambridge, CB4 0WS, UK.
>>>
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