[okfn-za] [HacksHackers Cape Town] Restrictive licences on government websites

Fri Apr 5 07:36:16 UTC 2013

I feel inclined to agree with Adi 's points (The ones I follow at any rate)

In the position of a department that has data:
If the data is made available in the raw state what could the results be:
 a) We could get sued by someone
 b) Nothing happens
 c) We look bad publicly

Personally I am looking at new ways of capturing data namely the "computer
vision" way

P

On 5 April 2013 09:00, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:

> I strongly disagree with both you and Sandi.
>
> You are both advocating for a supply-driven approach (convincing
> government to open data of their own accord). I don't think we have the
> right environment in South Africa to push this. Perhaps in the medium-long
> term. The problems with supply-driven are:
>
> - It's expensive.  We have limited resources in the public sector - asking
> for another policy to be implemented is unlikely to find traction.
> - It's untested - Paul, you mentioned that open-data creates jobs -
> really? Which jobs do you envisage being created? How much will those jobs
> add to the country's GDP? There are far bigger issues in South Africa to
> deal with without worrying about opening datasets.
> - Open data can easily be seen as adversarial - which government dept is
> going to open up data which is likely to result in public scrutiny?
> - We have a weak civil society pushing this issue. I might be wrong but
> from my experience with the community in Cape Town (forgive me if I have
> left out any important organisations) is that there is generally no
> interest in this topic. OKFN has almost zero activity on its mailing list
> and zero meetings to speak of. Odadi has not managed to follow through on
> the hackathon that was held last year. HacksHackers is the most active
> group of all but its constituents are not particularly interested in
> advocacy (again - forgive me if I am wrong here) but rather how do we use
> data to improve our ability to find stories.
>
> In short, there is no momentum or interest to push this agenda. I'm sure
> that the vast majority of subscribers to this mailing list are bored by
> this topic. Please speak up if you would like me to take this conversation
> off-line.
>
> Sandi - you talk about piggy-backing onto a larger process such as BRICS
> or SADC. I have spent the last 3 years of my life working on an open data
> mechanism in SADC in order to promote information sharing between countries
> in the  health sector. There are so many political hoops to jump through
> that this process is likely to take many more years before all countries
> jump on board. Interestingly, South Africa is the most open and the most
> closed country that I have worked with. Open because tenders are published
> in the public domain on the DoH website but closed because South Africa
> considers the oddest data to be secret and will not share it publicly.
>
> I believe that demand-driven (groups like HacksHackers demanding access to
> existing data sources) approaches are key:
> - They don't require much more effort from the public sector. The data is
> already available but perhaps under restrictive licences.
> - It tries to mobilise civil society to start to demand data. HacksHackers
> for instance does not care about the theoretical benefits of open data. We
> care about data availability and how we can exploit datasets in order to
> produce real, tangible products.
> - It is much more short term. We can see results immediately through the
> creation of products.
> - I want commercial access to data now because I want to build products
> and sell them either in a for profit or not for profit vehicle.
> - We already have legal instruments in place such as PAIA and the
> Copyright Act - why not take advantage of them?
>
> My goal is to try to convince potential users of open data to start
> producing products. Only through products will we have a "me too effect"
> which will produce an environment where advocacy will have significant
> effect.
>
> Until we have more than a handful of interested parties pushing this issue
> - I'm afraid that I'm very dubious of the approaches suggested.
>
> Adi
>
>
> On 5 April 2013 06:37, Paul Murphy <paul.murphy.ptm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think this is where the advocacy element of ODADI (and others) comes to
>> the fore.
>> And we should recognise that we have a long journey to convince the
>> powers that be that OpenData is a good thing and the way to go,
>> particularly in the current climate of the secrecy bill.
>> So whilst I can be convinced about OpenData relatively easily and change
>> my behavior accordingly, getting change to happen in the public sector will
>> take time.
>>
>> I am reminded of the UNDP Workshop on Open Data that I attended last year.
>>
>> http://unpan.org/Events/BrowseEventsbyCalendar/tabid/94/mctl/EventDetails/ModuleID/1532/ItemID/2228/language/en-US/Default.aspx?selecteddate=10/10/2012
>> and I attach the Canadian presentation which I found the most
>> enlightening and perhaps represents a version of a future that we can aim
>> for in South Africa.
>> (Brazil were also good but their presentation is a lot bigger - 7mb - so
>> I didn't want to attach)
>>
>> I agree with Sandi that rather than going the legal route we need to
>> constantly spread the OpenData message
>> - South Africa is meant to be a participatory democracy - Open Data
>> promotes that
>> - OpenData creates job opportunities
>> - showcasing examples of what has been done with Open Data - ideally
>> South African examples
>> - other
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:26 PM, Sandra Williams <sanditest7 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> As somebody who use to work in Govt IT I also know that it is an active
>>> process of maintaining boundaries to data access not only for external
>>> people but also within & between internal Govt divisions. This paradigm not
>>> only adds transactional costs to Govt services but also leads to added risk
>>> to Govt as an entity but also risk to society.
>>>
>>> E.g. Deeds office data standards (or lack thereof) leads to massive
>>> transactional costs with ripple effects on multiple economic value chains.
>>>
>>> It comes down to architecture (designing for open data access),
>>> standards & data governance policies - but mostly we need a new mindset
>>> about data "ownership" and empathy with citizens who have a legitimate
>>> right to data access.
>>>
>>> Legal challenge is 1 path but how bout using market forces? I.e I'm
>>> thinking of BRICS & the idea of closer integration between
>>> Brazil-Russia-India-China-SA can be supported by open Govt data standards.
>>> The same applies to our Southern African Economic Development Region - the
>>> cost of doing business in this region. Remember this sort of thing (among
>>> other idea was) exactly the rationale behind formation of the EU.  And
>>> although the EU project is floundering i.t.o. political & economic
>>> paradoxes yet as a data project it has shown us the power & value of open
>>> data.
>>>
>>> These are just thoughts - but I think in order to change the current
>>> data access paradigm requires the marshaling of significant energy (legal
>>> battles don't give you that) so maybe what's needed is piggybacking on
>>> other big ideas?
>>>
>>> Sandi
>>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Adi Eyal
> Data Specialist
> phone: +27 78 014 2469
> skype: adieyalcas
> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>
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