[okfn-za] okfn-za Digest, Vol 19, Issue 7

Thu May 2 08:07:57 UTC 2013

hey Aldi

( we met on twitter the other day)

Count me in for project cheerleader and community building!

@bella_velo

K
Kelsey Wiens
Cape Town, South Africa

Mobile:     +27 (72) 438 5095
Skype:      kelseylwiens
About.me: http://about.me/kelseywiens
Twitter:      bella_velo

“Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live.” –Mark Twain

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:46 AM,  <okfn-za-request at lists.okfn.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town]
>       Please Sue Me (Rufus Pollock)
>    2. Re: Please Sue Me (Rufus Pollock)
>    3. Re: Please Sue Me (Adi Eyal)
>    4. Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me (Geoffrey Kilpin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:06:51 +0100
> From: Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape
>         Town] Please Sue Me
> To: Nimi Hoffmann <Nimi.Hoffmann at gmail.com>
> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <CAKssCpPpQaHGoXY3cLkgswo4+tzkyVCCZcNt5vy4PCEDrP5RhQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> @Nimi and Francois: these are really good points (I feel perhaps we
> should fork the thread!).
>
> @Nimi: you can raise issues re the Census here
> http://github.com/okfn/opendatacensus and anyone can contribute to it!
> We are working to put in place additional review mechanisms including
> having "country editors" to address the kind of queries you raised re
> India and Kenya. We're also reviewing the ranking / scoring mechanism
> as there are several different ways we could incorporate the various
> different responses.
>
> Rufus
>
> On 1 May 2013 17:42, Nimi Hoffmann <Nimi.Hoffmann at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hmm, good point. I agree with you. However, do you not think one could
>> usefully combine a binary-type indicator of openness with indicators on
>> access to create a matrix which provides information on both the incidence
>> of openness, as well as the intensity of openness.
>>
>> I don't know if you're familiar with the multidimensional poverty index
>> (MPI), but this is kind of what I had in mind, albeit at a much less
>> sophisticated level :)
>>
>> http://www.ophi.org.uk/multidimensional-poverty-index/
>>
>> Warmly,
>> Nimi
>>
>>
>> On 1 May 2013 18:34, Francois van Schalkwyk <francois at compressdsl.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just a quick thought: I don?t think we should conflate access with
>>> openness. Both, as you rightly point out, are important ? openness without
>>> access can seem pointless. But I think it?s important to treat these as
>>> separate but related issues.
>>>
>>> Francois
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org
>>> [mailto:okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org] On Behalf Of Nimi Hoffmann
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:29 PM
>>> To: hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com
>>> Cc: okfn-za at lists.okfn.org; hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com;
>>> odadi at googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town]
>>> Please Sue Me
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Rufus and Adi. The Open Data Census looks really useful. I'm a
>>> little surprised at how low Kenya and India scored. Also, I wonder to what
>>> extent the Census captures the intensity of openness. For example, in South
>>> Africa, not so many people have meaningful access to broadband Internet. As
>>> a consequence, I'd argue that a resource like StatsSA, limited though it is
>>> to those of us with good connectivity, is basically invisible to those who
>>> do not have such connectivity.
>>>
>>> I wonder if it's possible to qualify the dataset by including a dataset on
>>> Internet connectivity, access to electricity etc? I'll take a look at the
>>> dataset this weekend and see if one can get at a more precise analysis. Hmm,
>>> it also makes me think about doing (potentially dodgy!) work on the
>>> relationship between how open government data is, and other indicators, such
>>> as the accuracy of weather forecasts, which are crucial for effective
>>> disaster risk management and rely strongly on climate data.
>>>
>>> I'll see what I can dig up for you on open government data. But to be
>>> honest, I focused on Kenya, the UK, the US and India, since as far as I
>>> know, SA doesn't really have an articulate position on the matter (at least
>>> at policy level).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a good conversation. Thank you. Hope we keep it rolling :)
>>> Nimi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2013 18:10, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Nimi
>>>
>>> I like what you're saying. The Open Data Census
>>> (http://census.okfn.org/) already answers some of your questions.
>>> Coverage is not uniform though so, especially the Kenyan responses but
>>> we can always ask the guys at the Open Institute to fill it in to give
>>> us a better benchmark.
>>>
>>> You mention your research on open government data, it would be great
>>> to hear more about the activities in the South African space.
>>>
>>> Adi
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2013 16:23, rapscalian <rapscalian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Adi, I really like this idea.
>>> >
>>> > I think a map of what government data is currently available would be an
>>> > invaluable tool. This means we could also compare South Africa with
>>> > Kenya,
>>> > India etc. In this way, we could benchmark ourselves against countries
>>> > in
>>> > the global South. As a rhetorical exercise, it may be quite effective
>>> > because we South Africans like to think we are somehow ahead of the
>>> > game,
>>> > particularly in Africa. So when we hear we are very far behind the
>>> > Kenyas of
>>> > this world, it may awaken some misplaced sense of pride and stir a
>>> > little
>>> > action ...
>>> >
>>> > I don't know how much time I can commit to helping out as I am currently
>>> > working in a very time-intensive environment. However, I have done some
>>> > research on the topic of open government data, so I am happy to
>>> > contribute
>>> > this.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Nimi
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 30 April 2013 18:57, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> You can never have too many cheerleaders.  :)
>>> >>
>>> >> Adi
>>> >>
>>> >> On 30 Apr 2013 6:55 PM, "Janice Winter" <janicelwinter at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'd be a super keen project cheerleader :)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 30 April 2013 16:31, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Thanks Niki
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Actually, programming is just one of the many skills that are
>>> >>>> required. We need the following (in no particular order):
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> 1. Scrapers (there are some tools that can help non-programmers
>>> >>>> scrape
>>> >>>> simple data)
>>> >>>> 2. Identification of worthwhile datasets
>>> >>>> 3. General project cheerleaders
>>> >>>> 4. Legal opinions would be welcome
>>> >>>> 5. Discussions around data availability. The more we discuss this
>>> >>>> amongst ourselves and in other public spaces, the more it because a
>>> >>>> real issue.
>>> >>>> 6. Possibly a bunch more - we'll figure it out as we go along.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The bottom line is - don't exclude yourself if you're not a coder.
>>> >>>> There are other dimensions to this problem.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> A nice side-effect of this project is that we can start putting
>>> >>>> together an data census in South Africa. What data is available and
>>> >>>> where.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Adi
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 30 April 2013 15:24, Niki Moore <nikimoore007 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>> > I really wish I could help you, but not being a hacker myself I
>>> >>>> > wouldn't
>>> >>>> > know where to start.  However, what I am very happy to do is take
>>> >>>> > some
>>> >>>> > of
>>> >>>> > the hacked stuff and point out how useless it is in the first
>>> >>>> > place...
>>> >>>> > for
>>> >>>> > instance, the DSD database of NGOs is five years out of date, and
>>> >>>> > 90%
>>> >>>> > of
>>> >>>> > their records are wrong.  One of the biggest problems on the
>>> >>>> > property
>>> >>>> > roll
>>> >>>> > is that it is inaccurate.  I could go on.....
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Maybe one of the reasons why the government is so protective of
>>> >>>> > their
>>> >>>> > information is because they know that most of it is useless for
>>> >>>> > purposes of
>>> >>>> > governance.  So - perhaps a side angle would be that it is
>>> >>>> > important
>>> >>>> > for the
>>> >>>> > public to have access to this information so that they can check
>>> >>>> > that
>>> >>>> > it is
>>> >>>> > correct!
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > N
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
>>> >>>> > wrote:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>> >>>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>> >>>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>> >>>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all
>>> >>>> >> of
>>> >>>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>> >>>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a
>>> >>>> >> database
>>> >>>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said
>>> >>>> >> data.
>>> >>>> >> On
>>> >>>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public
>>> >>>> >> funds
>>> >>>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>> >>>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for
>>> >>>> >> re-use
>>> >>>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>> >>>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use
>>> >>>> >> information
>>> >>>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the
>>> >>>> >> item
>>> >>>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us
>>> >>>> >> to
>>> >>>> >> make an informed decision. "
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to
>>> >>>> >> re-use a
>>> >>>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>> >>>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>> >>>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> The idea is as follows:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>> >>>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that
>>> >>>> >> seems
>>> >>>> >> to
>>> >>>> >> not be copyrightable
>>> >>>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>> >>>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general
>>> >>>> >> re-use.
>>> >>>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be
>>> >>>> >> used
>>> >>>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it
>>> >>>> >> comes
>>> >>>> >> to
>>> >>>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but
>>> >>>> >> by
>>> >>>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might
>>> >>>> >> be
>>> >>>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might
>>> >>>> >> get
>>> >>>> >> a
>>> >>>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>> >>>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>> >>>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>> >>>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Adi
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> --
>>> >>>> >> Adi Eyal
>>> >>>> >> Data Specialist
>>> >>>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> >>>> >> skype: adieyalcas
>>> >>>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> --
>>> >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> >>>> >> Groups
>>> >>>> >> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>> >>>> >> send an
>>> >>>> >> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>>> >> To post to this group, send an email to
>>> >>>> >> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > --
>>> >>>> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>> >>>> > 7th Avenue Communications
>>> >>>> > 031 - 205-8331
>>> >>>> > 083 - 758-4483
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > --
>>> >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> >>>> > Groups
>>> >>>> > "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>> >>>> > send
>>> >>>> > an
>>> >>>> > email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>> >>>> > hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> Adi Eyal
>>> >>>> Data Specialist
>>> >>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> >>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>> >>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> >>>> Groups "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>> >>>> send
>>> >>>> an email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>> >>>> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> >>> Groups
>>> >>> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> >>> an
>>> >>> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>> >>> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> >> Groups
>>> >> "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> >> an
>>> >> email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> >> To post to this group, send an email to
>>> >> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
>>> >>
>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> > Groups
>>> > "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> > an
>>> > email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>> > hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
>>> >
>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adi Eyal
>>> Data Specialist
>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> okfn-za mailing list
>> okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-za
>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-za
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:09:27 +0100
> From: Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] Please Sue Me
> To: Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <CAKssCpOuk=9v2Xc5xo-CnjPQqgP02DMisUjNttuzekx7zfFv6g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Forking back to the start of the thread:
>
> It seems there is pretty good consensus this is a worthwhile idea :-)
>
> next steps would seem to be:
>
> - Grabbing some relevant data (we've already had an offer off-list I
> think, or have data)
> - Putting up a website (I can get a nice wordpress site booted if
> someone (Adi?) can register the domain ...
>
> What do people think?
>
> Rufus
>
> On 30 April 2013 14:09, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>
>> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all of
>> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>
>> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data. On
>> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public funds
>> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>
>> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use information
>> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>> make an informed decision. "
>>
>> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use a
>> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>
>> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>
>> The idea is as follows:
>>
>> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems to
>> not be copyrightable
>> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>
>> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be used
>> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes to
>> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might be
>> important to push open data licences within government. We might get a
>> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>
>> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>
>> Adi
>>
>> --
>> Adi Eyal
>> Data Specialist
>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>> skype: adieyalcas
>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> okfn-za mailing list
>> okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-za
>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-za
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 19:13:03 +0200
> From: Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] Please Sue Me
> To: Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <CAEQY0Y5nzibVeLqNQm_cP53h+BU6pyLE7rtkMa2FrdaySqLrAA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I've registered the doman (just waiting for coza to fix their payment
> gateway so that I can pay for it).
>
> I've also put together a shop front website using woocommerce and have
> uploaded a couple of datasets there. Any contribution of skills and/or
> time would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Hopefully you should be able to go to http://www.pleasesueme.co.za by
> tomorrow and see a basic site framework.
>
> Adi
>
> On 1 May 2013 19:09, Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org> wrote:
>> Forking back to the start of the thread:
>>
>> It seems there is pretty good consensus this is a worthwhile idea :-)
>>
>> next steps would seem to be:
>>
>> - Grabbing some relevant data (we've already had an offer off-list I
>> think, or have data)
>> - Putting up a website (I can get a nice wordpress site booted if
>> someone (Adi?) can register the domain ...
>>
>> What do people think?
>>
>> Rufus
>>
>> On 30 April 2013 14:09, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>>
>>> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all of
>>> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>>
>>> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>>> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data. On
>>> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public funds
>>> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>>> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>>
>>> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use information
>>> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>>> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>>> make an informed decision. "
>>>
>>> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use a
>>> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>>
>>> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>>
>>> The idea is as follows:
>>>
>>> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems to
>>> not be copyrightable
>>> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>>> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>>
>>> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be used
>>> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes to
>>> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>>> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might be
>>> important to push open data licences within government. We might get a
>>> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>>
>>> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>>
>>> Adi
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adi Eyal
>>> Data Specialist
>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> okfn-za mailing list
>>> okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-za
>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-za
>
>
>
> --
> Adi Eyal
> Data Specialist
> phone: +27 78 014 2469
> skype: adieyalcas
> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 00:46:18 +0200
> From: Geoffrey Kilpin <geoffreykilpin at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me
> To: "odadi at googlegroups.com" <odadi at googlegroups.com>
> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>,
>         hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com,
>         "hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com"
>         <hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com>
> Message-ID:
>         <CAFEm+Cqm0UCTJ-60CWSV_wun2s=+GdTorKduNMTzGwp2udKtPQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Adi,
>
> I agree that raising the issue in the national discourse is potentially
> useful - but perhaps it is a step that should be considered if we are
> unable to engage with decision makers in government.
>
> I won't pretend to know how to approach lobbying government (maybe others
> can contribute ideas?) - but I imagine working out who makes these
> decisions is the first step, followed by formulating a strategy to approach
> them. Comparing South African policies to other countries probably should
> be part of this - particularly within Africa in countries that have made
> more progress with open data than us, but also elsewhere. I just took a
> quick look at the license used for data.gov.uk - it allows commercial use (
> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/).
>
> Another approach might be to just obtain legal opinion on the use of
> fact-based datasets, such as municipal boundary data. It might be easier to
> raise funds for that, and would hopefully provide at least some peace of
> mind to those using this data.
>
> Cheers,
> Geoff.
>
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>
>> Hi Geoff
>>
>> I was waiting for your response :). The openly antagonist flavour of
>> this initiative has given me pause. The one benefit of this approach
>> is that it is openly controversial and will hopefully spark
>> discussions and raise the issue of government data into the national
>> discourse (at least a little).
>>
>> I'm keen to hear your thoughts though about how we could take the
>> alternative route of changing government policies vis a vis releasing
>> data into the public domain. Regardless I think our goals are the
>> same, i.e. changing the de facto licence under which data is made
>> available from restrictive to open.
>>
>> Adi
>>
>> On 1 May 2013 16:56, Geoffrey Kilpin <geoffreykilpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi Adi,
>> >
>> > Thanks for your work on this and the Daily Maverick column - it is very
>> > interesting to hear about the responses that you've been getting. This
>> idea
>> > is very cool - but I wonder if a potentially confrontational approach is
>> the
>> > best way to start.
>> >
>> > Maybe the goal of all this should be that all government data is placed
>> in
>> > the public domain, as is the case in the U.S. (see
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Domain#Government_works).
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Geoff.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
>> >>
>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all of
>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>> >>
>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data. On
>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public funds
>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>> >>
>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use information
>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>> >> make an informed decision. "
>> >>
>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use a
>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>> >>
>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>> >>
>> >> The idea is as follows:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems to
>> >> not be copyrightable
>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>> >>
>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be used
>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes to
>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might be
>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might get a
>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>> >>
>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>> >>
>> >> Adi
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Adi Eyal
>> >> Data Specialist
>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>> >> skype: adieyalcas
>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>> >>
>> >> --
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Adi Eyal
>> Data Specialist
>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>> skype: adieyalcas
>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>>
>>
>>
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