[okfn-za] okfn-za Digest, Vol 19, Issue 8
Kelsey Wiens
kelseywiens at gmail.com
Thu May 2 08:54:26 UTC 2013
just to add on Leon's thoughts. Would be brilliant to have a teacher
abstantee tracking as well. For the students to notify when their
teacher isn't available to teach that day. A visual representation of
that issue would be really helpful.
Could overlay that with broken toilets, and other infrastructures breakdowns.
Also think we need to start thinking about some sort of timeline when
it comes to Educations in SA. I've just finished a study on Primary
School edu in South Africa and found it extremely difficult to tell
the story of the breakdowns in SA education. I'm happy to roll with
this (and my current findings) if someone with smarter developer
smarty-pants can help.
Kelsey Wiens
Cape Town, South Africa
Mobile: +27 (72) 438 5095
Skype: kelseylwiens
About.me: http://about.me/kelseywiens
Twitter: bella_velo
“Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live.” –Mark Twain
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:08 AM, <okfn-za-request at lists.okfn.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me (Leon Gert Marincowitz)
> 2. Re: okfn-za Digest, Vol 19, Issue 7 (Kelsey Wiens)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 08:48:03 +0200
> From: Leon Gert Marincowitz <lmarincowitz at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me
> To: Geoffrey Kilpin <geoffreykilpin at gmail.com>
> Cc: okfn-za at lists.okfn.org,
> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com,
> "hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com"
> <hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com>, odadi at googlegroups.com
> Message-ID:
> <CAGh00TBk_35=uvuJWowgiSXz5W_S7-rudS22bu2pjmFS-_YJog at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Guys
>
> My to cents worth, having worked for government I can reliable confirm that
> there is absolutely 100% chance of lobbying Gov for a change of policy.
> This is because it's no where on the issue and trying to find someone who
> even knows about it and in the face of the secrecy bill is non existent.
>
> What helps change is facts on the ground. Collect as much info as
> possible. All gov budgets municipal stuff etc despite licences. Then turn
> attention to info like the textbook saga - I loved the idea that students
> could report book shortages.
>
> Then make and compile such info that its easy to use.
> Then make it available as a reliable source to academics and journalists
> and NGO's. Equal Education would love a continually updated list of failed
> textbook delivery.
>
> This for me would be a much more certain and productive POA than lobbying
> Gov.
>
> Best
>
> Leon G. Marincowitz
> Apologies for brevity, sent from smartphone
> lmarincowitz at gmail.com
> On 02 May 2013 12:46 AM, "Geoffrey Kilpin" <geoffreykilpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Adi,
>>
>> I agree that raising the issue in the national discourse is potentially
>> useful - but perhaps it is a step that should be considered if we are
>> unable to engage with decision makers in government.
>>
>> I won't pretend to know how to approach lobbying government (maybe others
>> can contribute ideas?) - but I imagine working out who makes these
>> decisions is the first step, followed by formulating a strategy to approach
>> them. Comparing South African policies to other countries probably should
>> be part of this - particularly within Africa in countries that have made
>> more progress with open data than us, but also elsewhere. I just took a
>> quick look at the license used for data.gov.uk - it allows commercial use
>> (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/).
>>
>> Another approach might be to just obtain legal opinion on the use of
>> fact-based datasets, such as municipal boundary data. It might be easier to
>> raise funds for that, and would hopefully provide at least some peace of
>> mind to those using this data.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Geoff.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Geoff
>>>
>>> I was waiting for your response :). The openly antagonist flavour of
>>> this initiative has given me pause. The one benefit of this approach
>>> is that it is openly controversial and will hopefully spark
>>> discussions and raise the issue of government data into the national
>>> discourse (at least a little).
>>>
>>> I'm keen to hear your thoughts though about how we could take the
>>> alternative route of changing government policies vis a vis releasing
>>> data into the public domain. Regardless I think our goals are the
>>> same, i.e. changing the de facto licence under which data is made
>>> available from restrictive to open.
>>>
>>> Adi
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2013 16:56, Geoffrey Kilpin <geoffreykilpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Hi Adi,
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for your work on this and the Daily Maverick column - it is very
>>> > interesting to hear about the responses that you've been getting. This
>>> idea
>>> > is very cool - but I wonder if a potentially confrontational approach
>>> is the
>>> > best way to start.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe the goal of all this should be that all government data is placed
>>> in
>>> > the public domain, as is the case in the U.S. (see
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Domain#Government_works).
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Geoff.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>> >>
>>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all of
>>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>> >>
>>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data. On
>>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public funds
>>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>> >>
>>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use information
>>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>>> >> make an informed decision. "
>>> >>
>>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use a
>>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>> >>
>>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>> >>
>>> >> The idea is as follows:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems to
>>> >> not be copyrightable
>>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>> >>
>>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be used
>>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes to
>>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might be
>>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might get a
>>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>> >>
>>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>> >>
>>> >> Adi
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Adi Eyal
>>> >> Data Specialist
>>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> >> skype: adieyalcas
>>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> >> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an
>>> >> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> >> To post to this group, send an email to
>>> >> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> > "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an
>>> > email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>> > hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adi Eyal
>>> Data Specialist
>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Open Data and Democracy Initiative (ODADI)" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to odadi+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 10:07:57 +0200
> From: Kelsey Wiens <kelseywiens at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] okfn-za Digest, Vol 19, Issue 7
> To: okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
> Message-ID:
> <CAHL07dWYLF4hhn4p1MQJrmtRm7m2=Htw3FnqRRXy0viVd6W1OQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> hey Aldi
>
> ( we met on twitter the other day)
>
> Count me in for project cheerleader and community building!
>
> @bella_velo
>
> K
> Kelsey Wiens
> Cape Town, South Africa
>
> Mobile: +27 (72) 438 5095
> Skype: kelseylwiens
> About.me: http://about.me/kelseywiens
> Twitter: bella_velo
>
> ?Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live.? ?Mark Twain
>
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 12:46 AM, <okfn-za-request at lists.okfn.org> wrote:
>> Send okfn-za mailing list submissions to
>> okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-za
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> okfn-za-request at lists.okfn.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> okfn-za-owner at lists.okfn.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of okfn-za digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town]
>> Please Sue Me (Rufus Pollock)
>> 2. Re: Please Sue Me (Rufus Pollock)
>> 3. Re: Please Sue Me (Adi Eyal)
>> 4. Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me (Geoffrey Kilpin)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:06:51 +0100
>> From: Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
>> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape
>> Town] Please Sue Me
>> To: Nimi Hoffmann <Nimi.Hoffmann at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAKssCpPpQaHGoXY3cLkgswo4+tzkyVCCZcNt5vy4PCEDrP5RhQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> @Nimi and Francois: these are really good points (I feel perhaps we
>> should fork the thread!).
>>
>> @Nimi: you can raise issues re the Census here
>> http://github.com/okfn/opendatacensus and anyone can contribute to it!
>> We are working to put in place additional review mechanisms including
>> having "country editors" to address the kind of queries you raised re
>> India and Kenya. We're also reviewing the ranking / scoring mechanism
>> as there are several different ways we could incorporate the various
>> different responses.
>>
>> Rufus
>>
>> On 1 May 2013 17:42, Nimi Hoffmann <Nimi.Hoffmann at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hmm, good point. I agree with you. However, do you not think one could
>>> usefully combine a binary-type indicator of openness with indicators on
>>> access to create a matrix which provides information on both the incidence
>>> of openness, as well as the intensity of openness.
>>>
>>> I don't know if you're familiar with the multidimensional poverty index
>>> (MPI), but this is kind of what I had in mind, albeit at a much less
>>> sophisticated level :)
>>>
>>> http://www.ophi.org.uk/multidimensional-poverty-index/
>>>
>>> Warmly,
>>> Nimi
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2013 18:34, Francois van Schalkwyk <francois at compressdsl.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Just a quick thought: I don?t think we should conflate access with
>>>> openness. Both, as you rightly point out, are important ? openness without
>>>> access can seem pointless. But I think it?s important to treat these as
>>>> separate but related issues.
>>>>
>>>> Francois
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org
>>>> [mailto:okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org] On Behalf Of Nimi Hoffmann
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:29 PM
>>>> To: hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com
>>>> Cc: okfn-za at lists.okfn.org; hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com;
>>>> odadi at googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town]
>>>> Please Sue Me
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Rufus and Adi. The Open Data Census looks really useful. I'm a
>>>> little surprised at how low Kenya and India scored. Also, I wonder to what
>>>> extent the Census captures the intensity of openness. For example, in South
>>>> Africa, not so many people have meaningful access to broadband Internet. As
>>>> a consequence, I'd argue that a resource like StatsSA, limited though it is
>>>> to those of us with good connectivity, is basically invisible to those who
>>>> do not have such connectivity.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if it's possible to qualify the dataset by including a dataset on
>>>> Internet connectivity, access to electricity etc? I'll take a look at the
>>>> dataset this weekend and see if one can get at a more precise analysis. Hmm,
>>>> it also makes me think about doing (potentially dodgy!) work on the
>>>> relationship between how open government data is, and other indicators, such
>>>> as the accuracy of weather forecasts, which are crucial for effective
>>>> disaster risk management and rely strongly on climate data.
>>>>
>>>> I'll see what I can dig up for you on open government data. But to be
>>>> honest, I focused on Kenya, the UK, the US and India, since as far as I
>>>> know, SA doesn't really have an articulate position on the matter (at least
>>>> at policy level).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a good conversation. Thank you. Hope we keep it rolling :)
>>>> Nimi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1 May 2013 18:10, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Nimi
>>>>
>>>> I like what you're saying. The Open Data Census
>>>> (http://census.okfn.org/) already answers some of your questions.
>>>> Coverage is not uniform though so, especially the Kenyan responses but
>>>> we can always ask the guys at the Open Institute to fill it in to give
>>>> us a better benchmark.
>>>>
>>>> You mention your research on open government data, it would be great
>>>> to hear more about the activities in the South African space.
>>>>
>>>> Adi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1 May 2013 16:23, rapscalian <rapscalian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Adi, I really like this idea.
>>>> >
>>>> > I think a map of what government data is currently available would be an
>>>> > invaluable tool. This means we could also compare South Africa with
>>>> > Kenya,
>>>> > India etc. In this way, we could benchmark ourselves against countries
>>>> > in
>>>> > the global South. As a rhetorical exercise, it may be quite effective
>>>> > because we South Africans like to think we are somehow ahead of the
>>>> > game,
>>>> > particularly in Africa. So when we hear we are very far behind the
>>>> > Kenyas of
>>>> > this world, it may awaken some misplaced sense of pride and stir a
>>>> > little
>>>> > action ...
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't know how much time I can commit to helping out as I am currently
>>>> > working in a very time-intensive environment. However, I have done some
>>>> > research on the topic of open government data, so I am happy to
>>>> > contribute
>>>> > this.
>>>> >
>>>> > Cheers,
>>>> > Nimi
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 30 April 2013 18:57, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You can never have too many cheerleaders. :)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Adi
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 30 Apr 2013 6:55 PM, "Janice Winter" <janicelwinter at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I'd be a super keen project cheerleader :)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On 30 April 2013 16:31, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Thanks Niki
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Actually, programming is just one of the many skills that are
>>>> >>>> required. We need the following (in no particular order):
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> 1. Scrapers (there are some tools that can help non-programmers
>>>> >>>> scrape
>>>> >>>> simple data)
>>>> >>>> 2. Identification of worthwhile datasets
>>>> >>>> 3. General project cheerleaders
>>>> >>>> 4. Legal opinions would be welcome
>>>> >>>> 5. Discussions around data availability. The more we discuss this
>>>> >>>> amongst ourselves and in other public spaces, the more it because a
>>>> >>>> real issue.
>>>> >>>> 6. Possibly a bunch more - we'll figure it out as we go along.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The bottom line is - don't exclude yourself if you're not a coder.
>>>> >>>> There are other dimensions to this problem.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> A nice side-effect of this project is that we can start putting
>>>> >>>> together an data census in South Africa. What data is available and
>>>> >>>> where.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Adi
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 30 April 2013 15:24, Niki Moore <nikimoore007 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> > I really wish I could help you, but not being a hacker myself I
>>>> >>>> > wouldn't
>>>> >>>> > know where to start. However, what I am very happy to do is take
>>>> >>>> > some
>>>> >>>> > of
>>>> >>>> > the hacked stuff and point out how useless it is in the first
>>>> >>>> > place...
>>>> >>>> > for
>>>> >>>> > instance, the DSD database of NGOs is five years out of date, and
>>>> >>>> > 90%
>>>> >>>> > of
>>>> >>>> > their records are wrong. One of the biggest problems on the
>>>> >>>> > property
>>>> >>>> > roll
>>>> >>>> > is that it is inaccurate. I could go on.....
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Maybe one of the reasons why the government is so protective of
>>>> >>>> > their
>>>> >>>> > information is because they know that most of it is useless for
>>>> >>>> > purposes of
>>>> >>>> > governance. So - perhaps a side angle would be that it is
>>>> >>>> > important
>>>> >>>> > for the
>>>> >>>> > public to have access to this information so that they can check
>>>> >>>> > that
>>>> >>>> > it is
>>>> >>>> > correct!
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > N
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
>>>> >>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>>> >>>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>>> >>>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>>> >>>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all
>>>> >>>> >> of
>>>> >>>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>>> >>>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a
>>>> >>>> >> database
>>>> >>>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said
>>>> >>>> >> data.
>>>> >>>> >> On
>>>> >>>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public
>>>> >>>> >> funds
>>>> >>>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>>> >>>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for
>>>> >>>> >> re-use
>>>> >>>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>>> >>>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use
>>>> >>>> >> information
>>>> >>>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the
>>>> >>>> >> item
>>>> >>>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us
>>>> >>>> >> to
>>>> >>>> >> make an informed decision. "
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to
>>>> >>>> >> re-use a
>>>> >>>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>>> >>>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>>> >>>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> The idea is as follows:
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>>> >>>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that
>>>> >>>> >> seems
>>>> >>>> >> to
>>>> >>>> >> not be copyrightable
>>>> >>>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>>> >>>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general
>>>> >>>> >> re-use.
>>>> >>>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be
>>>> >>>> >> used
>>>> >>>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it
>>>> >>>> >> comes
>>>> >>>> >> to
>>>> >>>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but
>>>> >>>> >> by
>>>> >>>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might
>>>> >>>> >> be
>>>> >>>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might
>>>> >>>> >> get
>>>> >>>> >> a
>>>> >>>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>>> >>>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>>> >>>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>>> >>>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> Adi
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> --
>>>> >>>> >> Adi Eyal
>>>> >>>> >> Data Specialist
>>>> >>>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>>> >>>> >> skype: adieyalcas
>>>> >>>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >> --
>>>> >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> >>>> >> Groups
>>>> >>>> >> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>>> >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>> >>>> >> send an
>>>> >>>> >> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>>> >> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> >>>> >> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >>
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > --
>>>> >>>> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>>>> >>>> > 7th Avenue Communications
>>>> >>>> > 031 - 205-8331
>>>> >>>> > 083 - 758-4483
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > --
>>>> >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> >>>> > Groups
>>>> >>>> > "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>>> >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>> >>>> > send
>>>> >>>> > an
>>>> >>>> > email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> >>>> > hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>>> Adi Eyal
>>>> >>>> Data Specialist
>>>> >>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>>> >>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>>> >>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> >>>> Groups "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>> >>>> send
>>>> >>>> an email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> >>>> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> >>> Groups
>>>> >>> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> >>> an
>>>> >>> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> >>> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> >> Groups
>>>> >> "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> >> an
>>>> >> email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> >> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> > Groups
>>>> > "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> > an
>>>> > email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> > hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
>>>> >
>>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adi Eyal
>>>> Data Specialist
>>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>>> "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>>> email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> okfn-za mailing list
>>> okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-za
>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-za
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 18:09:27 +0100
>> From: Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
>> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] Please Sue Me
>> To: Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
>> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAKssCpOuk=9v2Xc5xo-CnjPQqgP02DMisUjNttuzekx7zfFv6g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Forking back to the start of the thread:
>>
>> It seems there is pretty good consensus this is a worthwhile idea :-)
>>
>> next steps would seem to be:
>>
>> - Grabbing some relevant data (we've already had an offer off-list I
>> think, or have data)
>> - Putting up a website (I can get a nice wordpress site booted if
>> someone (Adi?) can register the domain ...
>>
>> What do people think?
>>
>> Rufus
>>
>> On 30 April 2013 14:09, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>>
>>> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all of
>>> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>>
>>> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>>> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data. On
>>> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public funds
>>> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>>> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>>
>>> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use information
>>> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>>> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>>> make an informed decision. "
>>>
>>> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use a
>>> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>>
>>> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>>
>>> The idea is as follows:
>>>
>>> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems to
>>> not be copyrightable
>>> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>>> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>>
>>> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be used
>>> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes to
>>> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>>> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might be
>>> important to push open data licences within government. We might get a
>>> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>>
>>> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>>
>>> Adi
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adi Eyal
>>> Data Specialist
>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> okfn-za mailing list
>>> okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-za
>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-za
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 19:13:03 +0200
>> From: Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
>> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] Please Sue Me
>> To: Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org>
>> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAEQY0Y5nzibVeLqNQm_cP53h+BU6pyLE7rtkMa2FrdaySqLrAA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> I've registered the doman (just waiting for coza to fix their payment
>> gateway so that I can pay for it).
>>
>> I've also put together a shop front website using woocommerce and have
>> uploaded a couple of datasets there. Any contribution of skills and/or
>> time would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Hopefully you should be able to go to http://www.pleasesueme.co.za by
>> tomorrow and see a basic site framework.
>>
>> Adi
>>
>> On 1 May 2013 19:09, Rufus Pollock <rufus.pollock at okfn.org> wrote:
>>> Forking back to the start of the thread:
>>>
>>> It seems there is pretty good consensus this is a worthwhile idea :-)
>>>
>>> next steps would seem to be:
>>>
>>> - Grabbing some relevant data (we've already had an offer off-list I
>>> think, or have data)
>>> - Putting up a website (I can get a nice wordpress site booted if
>>> someone (Adi?) can register the domain ...
>>>
>>> What do people think?
>>>
>>> Rufus
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2013 14:09, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>>> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>>> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>>> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>>>
>>>> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>>> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all of
>>>> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>>>
>>>> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>>> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>>>> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data. On
>>>> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public funds
>>>> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>>> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>>>> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>>> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>>>
>>>> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use information
>>>> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>>>> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>>>> make an informed decision. "
>>>>
>>>> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use a
>>>> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>>>
>>>> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>>> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>>> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>>>
>>>> The idea is as follows:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>>> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems to
>>>> not be copyrightable
>>>> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>>> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>>>> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>>>
>>>> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be used
>>>> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes to
>>>> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>>>> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might be
>>>> important to push open data licences within government. We might get a
>>>> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>>> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>>> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>>>
>>>> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>>> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Adi
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adi Eyal
>>>> Data Specialist
>>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> okfn-za mailing list
>>>> okfn-za at lists.okfn.org
>>>> http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/okfn-za
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/okfn-za
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Adi Eyal
>> Data Specialist
>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>> skype: adieyalcas
>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 00:46:18 +0200
>> From: Geoffrey Kilpin <geoffreykilpin at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me
>> To: "odadi at googlegroups.com" <odadi at googlegroups.com>
>> Cc: "okfn-za at lists.okfn.org" <okfn-za at lists.okfn.org>,
>> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com,
>> "hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com"
>> <hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com>
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAFEm+Cqm0UCTJ-60CWSV_wun2s=+GdTorKduNMTzGwp2udKtPQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Hi Adi,
>>
>> I agree that raising the issue in the national discourse is potentially
>> useful - but perhaps it is a step that should be considered if we are
>> unable to engage with decision makers in government.
>>
>> I won't pretend to know how to approach lobbying government (maybe others
>> can contribute ideas?) - but I imagine working out who makes these
>> decisions is the first step, followed by formulating a strategy to approach
>> them. Comparing South African policies to other countries probably should
>> be part of this - particularly within Africa in countries that have made
>> more progress with open data than us, but also elsewhere. I just took a
>> quick look at the license used for data.gov.uk - it allows commercial use (
>> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/).
>>
>> Another approach might be to just obtain legal opinion on the use of
>> fact-based datasets, such as municipal boundary data. It might be easier to
>> raise funds for that, and would hopefully provide at least some peace of
>> mind to those using this data.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Geoff.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Geoff
>>>
>>> I was waiting for your response :). The openly antagonist flavour of
>>> this initiative has given me pause. The one benefit of this approach
>>> is that it is openly controversial and will hopefully spark
>>> discussions and raise the issue of government data into the national
>>> discourse (at least a little).
>>>
>>> I'm keen to hear your thoughts though about how we could take the
>>> alternative route of changing government policies vis a vis releasing
>>> data into the public domain. Regardless I think our goals are the
>>> same, i.e. changing the de facto licence under which data is made
>>> available from restrictive to open.
>>>
>>> Adi
>>>
>>> On 1 May 2013 16:56, Geoffrey Kilpin <geoffreykilpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Hi Adi,
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for your work on this and the Daily Maverick column - it is very
>>> > interesting to hear about the responses that you've been getting. This
>>> idea
>>> > is very cool - but I wonder if a potentially confrontational approach is
>>> the
>>> > best way to start.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe the goal of all this should be that all government data is placed
>>> in
>>> > the public domain, as is the case in the U.S. (see
>>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Domain#Government_works).
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Geoff.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>> >>
>>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all of
>>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>> >>
>>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data. On
>>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public funds
>>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>> >>
>>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use information
>>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>>> >> make an informed decision. "
>>> >>
>>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use a
>>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>> >>
>>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>> >>
>>> >> The idea is as follows:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems to
>>> >> not be copyrightable
>>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>> >>
>>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be used
>>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes to
>>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might be
>>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might get a
>>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>> >>
>>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>> >>
>>> >> Adi
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Adi Eyal
>>> >> Data Specialist
>>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> >> skype: adieyalcas
>>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> >> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an
>>> >> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> >> To post to this group, send an email to
>>> >> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> > "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> > email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>> > hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adi Eyal
>>> Data Specialist
>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Open Data and Democracy Initiative (ODADI)" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to odadi+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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