[okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me

Wed May 1 16:34:26 UTC 2013

Just a quick thought: I don't think we should conflate access with openness.
Both, as you rightly point out, are important - openness without access can
seem pointless. But I think it's important to treat these as separate but
related issues.

Francois

From: okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org [mailto:okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org]
On Behalf Of Nimi Hoffmann
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:29 PM
To: hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com
Cc: okfn-za at lists.okfn.org; hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com;
odadi at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town]
Please Sue Me

Thanks Rufus and Adi. The Open Data Census looks really useful. I'm a little
surprised at how low Kenya and India scored. Also, I wonder to what extent
the Census captures the intensity of openness. For example, in South Africa,
not so many people have meaningful access to broadband Internet. As a
consequence, I'd argue that a resource like StatsSA, limited though it is to
those of us with good connectivity, is basically invisible to those who do
not have such connectivity. 

I wonder if it's possible to qualify the dataset by including a dataset on
Internet connectivity, access to electricity etc? I'll take a look at the
dataset this weekend and see if one can get at a more precise analysis. Hmm,
it also makes me think about doing (potentially dodgy!) work on the
relationship between how open government data is, and other indicators, such
as the accuracy of weather forecasts, which are crucial for effective
disaster risk management and rely strongly on climate data. 

I'll see what I can dig up for you on open government data. But to be
honest, I focused on Kenya, the UK, the US and India, since as far as I
know, SA doesn't really have an articulate position on the matter (at least
at policy level). 

This is a good conversation. Thank you. Hope we keep it rolling :)
Nimi

On 1 May 2013 18:10, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:

Hi Nimi

I like what you're saying. The Open Data Census
(http://census.okfn.org/) already answers some of your questions.
Coverage is not uniform though so, especially the Kenyan responses but
we can always ask the guys at the Open Institute to fill it in to give
us a better benchmark.

You mention your research on open government data, it would be great
to hear more about the activities in the South African space.

Adi

On 1 May 2013 16:23, rapscalian <rapscalian at gmail.com> wrote:
> Adi, I really like this idea.
>
> I think a map of what government data is currently available would be an
> invaluable tool. This means we could also compare South Africa with Kenya,
> India etc. In this way, we could benchmark ourselves against countries in
> the global South. As a rhetorical exercise, it may be quite effective
> because we South Africans like to think we are somehow ahead of the game,
> particularly in Africa. So when we hear we are very far behind the Kenyas
of
> this world, it may awaken some misplaced sense of pride and stir a little
> action ...
>
> I don't know how much time I can commit to helping out as I am currently
> working in a very time-intensive environment. However, I have done some
> research on the topic of open government data, so I am happy to contribute
> this.
>
> Cheers,
> Nimi
>
>
> On 30 April 2013 18:57, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>
>> You can never have too many cheerleaders.  :)
>>
>> Adi
>>
>> On 30 Apr 2013 6:55 PM, "Janice Winter" <janicelwinter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd be a super keen project cheerleader :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 30 April 2013 16:31, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Niki
>>>>
>>>> Actually, programming is just one of the many skills that are
>>>> required. We need the following (in no particular order):
>>>>
>>>> 1. Scrapers (there are some tools that can help non-programmers scrape
>>>> simple data)
>>>> 2. Identification of worthwhile datasets
>>>> 3. General project cheerleaders
>>>> 4. Legal opinions would be welcome
>>>> 5. Discussions around data availability. The more we discuss this
>>>> amongst ourselves and in other public spaces, the more it because a
>>>> real issue.
>>>> 6. Possibly a bunch more - we'll figure it out as we go along.
>>>>
>>>> The bottom line is - don't exclude yourself if you're not a coder.
>>>> There are other dimensions to this problem.
>>>>
>>>> A nice side-effect of this project is that we can start putting
>>>> together an data census in South Africa. What data is available and
>>>> where.
>>>>
>>>> Adi
>>>>
>>>> On 30 April 2013 15:24, Niki Moore <nikimoore007 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > I really wish I could help you, but not being a hacker myself I
>>>> > wouldn't
>>>> > know where to start.  However, what I am very happy to do is take
some
>>>> > of
>>>> > the hacked stuff and point out how useless it is in the first
place...
>>>> > for
>>>> > instance, the DSD database of NGOs is five years out of date, and 90%
>>>> > of
>>>> > their records are wrong.  One of the biggest problems on the property
>>>> > roll
>>>> > is that it is inaccurate.  I could go on.....
>>>> >
>>>> > Maybe one of the reasons why the government is so protective of their
>>>> > information is because they know that most of it is useless for
>>>> > purposes of
>>>> > governance.  So - perhaps a side angle would be that it is important
>>>> > for the
>>>> > public to have access to this information so that they can check that
>>>> > it is
>>>> > correct!
>>>> >
>>>> > N
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>>>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>>>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>>>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all
of
>>>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>>>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a database
>>>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data.
>>>> >> On
>>>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public
>>>> >> funds
>>>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>>>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for re-use
>>>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>>>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use
>>>> >> information
>>>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
>>>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
>>>> >> make an informed decision. "
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to re-use
a
>>>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>>>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>>>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The idea is as follows:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>>>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> not be copyrightable
>>>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>>>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general re-use.
>>>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be
>>>> >> used
>>>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but by
>>>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might
be
>>>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might get
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>>>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>>>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>>>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Adi
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Adi Eyal
>>>> >> Data Specialist
>>>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469 <tel:%2B27%2078%20014%202469> 
>>>> >> skype: adieyalcas
>>>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>> >>
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>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Adi Eyal
>>>> Data Specialist
>>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469 <tel:%2B27%2078%20014%202469> 
>>>> skype: adieyalcas
>>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>>>
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>>>
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--
Adi Eyal
Data Specialist
phone: +27 78 014 2469 <tel:%2B27%2078%20014%202469> 
skype: adieyalcas
linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal

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