[okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me

Wed May 1 16:42:31 UTC 2013

Hmm, good point. I agree with you. However, do you not think one could
usefully combine a binary-type indicator of openness with indicators on
access to create a matrix which provides information on both the
*incidence*of openness, as well as the
*intensity* of openness.

I don't know if you're familiar with the multidimensional poverty index
(MPI), but this is kind of what I had in mind, albeit at a much less
sophisticated level :)

http://www.ophi.org.uk/multidimensional-poverty-index/

Warmly,
Nimi

On 1 May 2013 18:34, Francois van Schalkwyk <francois at compressdsl.com>wrote:

> Just a quick thought: I don’t think we should conflate access with
> openness. Both, as you rightly point out, are important – openness without
> access can seem pointless. But I think it’s important to treat these as
> separate but related issues.****
>
> Francois****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org [mailto:
> okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org] *On Behalf Of *Nimi Hoffmann
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:29 PM
> *To:* hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com
> *Cc:* okfn-za at lists.okfn.org; hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com;
> odadi at googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape
> Town] Please Sue Me****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks Rufus and Adi. The Open Data Census looks really useful. I'm a
> little surprised at how low Kenya and India scored. Also, I wonder to what
> extent the Census captures the intensity of openness. For example, in South
> Africa, not so many people have meaningful access to broadband Internet. As
> a consequence, I'd argue that a resource like StatsSA, limited though it is
> to those of us with good connectivity, is basically invisible to those who
> do not have such connectivity.
>
> I wonder if it's possible to qualify the dataset by including a dataset on
> Internet connectivity, access to electricity etc? I'll take a look at the
> dataset this weekend and see if one can get at a more precise analysis.
> Hmm, it also makes me think about doing (potentially dodgy!) work on the
> relationship between how open government data is, and other indicators,
> such as the accuracy of weather forecasts, which are crucial for effective
> disaster risk management and rely strongly on climate data. ****
>
> I'll see what I can dig up for you on open government data. But to be
> honest, I focused on Kenya, the UK, the US and India, since as far as I
> know, SA doesn't really have an articulate position on the matter (at least
> at policy level). ****
>
> ** **
>
> This is a good conversation. Thank you. Hope we keep it rolling :)
> Nimi****
>
> ** **
>
> On 1 May 2013 18:10, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:****
>
> Hi Nimi
>
> I like what you're saying. The Open Data Census
> (http://census.okfn.org/) already answers some of your questions.
> Coverage is not uniform though so, especially the Kenyan responses but
> we can always ask the guys at the Open Institute to fill it in to give
> us a better benchmark.
>
> You mention your research on open government data, it would be great
> to hear more about the activities in the South African space.
>
> Adi****
>
>
> On 1 May 2013 16:23, rapscalian <rapscalian at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Adi, I really like this idea.
> >
> > I think a map of what government data is currently available would be an
> > invaluable tool. This means we could also compare South Africa with
> Kenya,
> > India etc. In this way, we could benchmark ourselves against countries in
> > the global South. As a rhetorical exercise, it may be quite effective
> > because we South Africans like to think we are somehow ahead of the game,
> > particularly in Africa. So when we hear we are very far behind the
> Kenyas of
> > this world, it may awaken some misplaced sense of pride and stir a little
> > action ...
> >
> > I don't know how much time I can commit to helping out as I am currently
> > working in a very time-intensive environment. However, I have done some
> > research on the topic of open government data, so I am happy to
> contribute
> > this.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Nimi
> >
> >
> > On 30 April 2013 18:57, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
> >>
> >> You can never have too many cheerleaders.  :)
> >>
> >> Adi
> >>
> >> On 30 Apr 2013 6:55 PM, "Janice Winter" <janicelwinter at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I'd be a super keen project cheerleader :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 30 April 2013 16:31, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks Niki
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually, programming is just one of the many skills that are
> >>>> required. We need the following (in no particular order):
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Scrapers (there are some tools that can help non-programmers scrape
> >>>> simple data)
> >>>> 2. Identification of worthwhile datasets
> >>>> 3. General project cheerleaders
> >>>> 4. Legal opinions would be welcome
> >>>> 5. Discussions around data availability. The more we discuss this
> >>>> amongst ourselves and in other public spaces, the more it because a
> >>>> real issue.
> >>>> 6. Possibly a bunch more - we'll figure it out as we go along.
> >>>>
> >>>> The bottom line is - don't exclude yourself if you're not a coder.
> >>>> There are other dimensions to this problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> A nice side-effect of this project is that we can start putting
> >>>> together an data census in South Africa. What data is available and
> >>>> where.
> >>>>
> >>>> Adi
> >>>>
> >>>> On 30 April 2013 15:24, Niki Moore <nikimoore007 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> > I really wish I could help you, but not being a hacker myself I
> >>>> > wouldn't
> >>>> > know where to start.  However, what I am very happy to do is take
> some
> >>>> > of
> >>>> > the hacked stuff and point out how useless it is in the first
> place...
> >>>> > for
> >>>> > instance, the DSD database of NGOs is five years out of date, and
> 90%
> >>>> > of
> >>>> > their records are wrong.  One of the biggest problems on the
> property
> >>>> > roll
> >>>> > is that it is inaccurate.  I could go on.....
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Maybe one of the reasons why the government is so protective of
> their
> >>>> > information is because they know that most of it is useless for
> >>>> > purposes of
> >>>> > governance.  So - perhaps a side angle would be that it is important
> >>>> > for the
> >>>> > public to have access to this information so that they can check
> that
> >>>> > it is
> >>>> > correct!
> >>>> >
> >>>> > N
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
> wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
> >>>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
> >>>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
> >>>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all
> of
> >>>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
> >>>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a
> database
> >>>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said data.
> >>>> >> On
> >>>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public
> >>>> >> funds
> >>>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
> >>>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for
> re-use
> >>>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
> >>>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use
> >>>> >> information
> >>>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the item
> >>>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us to
> >>>> >> make an informed decision. "
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to
> re-use a
> >>>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
> >>>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
> >>>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The idea is as follows:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
> >>>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that seems
> >>>> >> to
> >>>> >> not be copyrightable
> >>>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
> >>>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general
> re-use.
> >>>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be
> >>>> >> used
> >>>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it comes
> >>>> >> to
> >>>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but
> by
> >>>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might
> be
> >>>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might
> get
> >>>> >> a
> >>>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
> >>>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
> >>>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
> >>>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Adi
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >> Adi Eyal
> >>>> >> Data Specialist
> >>>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469
> >>>> >> skype: adieyalcas
> >>>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>> >> Groups
> >>>> >> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
> >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >>>> >> send an
> >>>> >> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>>> >> To post to this group, send an email to
> >>>> >> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
> >>>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> >>>> > 7th Avenue Communications
> >>>> > 031 - 205-8331
> >>>> > 083 - 758-4483
> >>>> >
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>> > Groups
> >>>> > "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
> >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> >>>> > an
> >>>> > email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
> >>>> > hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
> >>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Adi Eyal
> >>>> Data Specialist
> >>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
> >>>> skype: adieyalcas
> >>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>> Groups "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
> >>>>
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> >>>> an email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>>> To post to this group, send an email to
> >>>> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
> >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> >>> "HacksHackers CapeTown" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an
> >>> email to hackshackers-capetown+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >>> To post to this group, send an email to
> >>> hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com.
> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> >> "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an
> >> email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> >> To post to this group, send an email to
> >> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
> >>
> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send an email to
> > hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
> >
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Adi Eyal
> Data Specialist
> phone: +27 78 014 2469
> skype: adieyalcas
> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "HacksHackers Johannesburg" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to hackshackers-johannesburg+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send an email to
> hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/okfn-za/attachments/20130501/43d97892/attachment-0002.html>