[okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town] Please Sue Me

Wed May 1 17:06:51 UTC 2013

@Nimi and Francois: these are really good points (I feel perhaps we
should fork the thread!).

@Nimi: you can raise issues re the Census here
http://github.com/okfn/opendatacensus and anyone can contribute to it!
We are working to put in place additional review mechanisms including
having "country editors" to address the kind of queries you raised re
India and Kenya. We're also reviewing the ranking / scoring mechanism
as there are several different ways we could incorporate the various
different responses.

Rufus

On 1 May 2013 17:42, Nimi Hoffmann <Nimi.Hoffmann at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmm, good point. I agree with you. However, do you not think one could
> usefully combine a binary-type indicator of openness with indicators on
> access to create a matrix which provides information on both the incidence
> of openness, as well as the intensity of openness.
>
> I don't know if you're familiar with the multidimensional poverty index
> (MPI), but this is kind of what I had in mind, albeit at a much less
> sophisticated level :)
>
> http://www.ophi.org.uk/multidimensional-poverty-index/
>
> Warmly,
> Nimi
>
>
> On 1 May 2013 18:34, Francois van Schalkwyk <francois at compressdsl.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Just a quick thought: I don’t think we should conflate access with
>> openness. Both, as you rightly point out, are important – openness without
>> access can seem pointless. But I think it’s important to treat these as
>> separate but related issues.
>>
>> Francois
>>
>>
>>
>> From: okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org
>> [mailto:okfn-za-bounces at lists.okfn.org] On Behalf Of Nimi Hoffmann
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 6:29 PM
>> To: hackshackers-johannesburg at googlegroups.com
>> Cc: okfn-za at lists.okfn.org; hackshackers-capetown at googlegroups.com;
>> odadi at googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [okfn-za] [HacksHackers Jo'burg] Re: [HacksHackers Cape Town]
>> Please Sue Me
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Rufus and Adi. The Open Data Census looks really useful. I'm a
>> little surprised at how low Kenya and India scored. Also, I wonder to what
>> extent the Census captures the intensity of openness. For example, in South
>> Africa, not so many people have meaningful access to broadband Internet. As
>> a consequence, I'd argue that a resource like StatsSA, limited though it is
>> to those of us with good connectivity, is basically invisible to those who
>> do not have such connectivity.
>>
>> I wonder if it's possible to qualify the dataset by including a dataset on
>> Internet connectivity, access to electricity etc? I'll take a look at the
>> dataset this weekend and see if one can get at a more precise analysis. Hmm,
>> it also makes me think about doing (potentially dodgy!) work on the
>> relationship between how open government data is, and other indicators, such
>> as the accuracy of weather forecasts, which are crucial for effective
>> disaster risk management and rely strongly on climate data.
>>
>> I'll see what I can dig up for you on open government data. But to be
>> honest, I focused on Kenya, the UK, the US and India, since as far as I
>> know, SA doesn't really have an articulate position on the matter (at least
>> at policy level).
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a good conversation. Thank you. Hope we keep it rolling :)
>> Nimi
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1 May 2013 18:10, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Nimi
>>
>> I like what you're saying. The Open Data Census
>> (http://census.okfn.org/) already answers some of your questions.
>> Coverage is not uniform though so, especially the Kenyan responses but
>> we can always ask the guys at the Open Institute to fill it in to give
>> us a better benchmark.
>>
>> You mention your research on open government data, it would be great
>> to hear more about the activities in the South African space.
>>
>> Adi
>>
>>
>> On 1 May 2013 16:23, rapscalian <rapscalian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Adi, I really like this idea.
>> >
>> > I think a map of what government data is currently available would be an
>> > invaluable tool. This means we could also compare South Africa with
>> > Kenya,
>> > India etc. In this way, we could benchmark ourselves against countries
>> > in
>> > the global South. As a rhetorical exercise, it may be quite effective
>> > because we South Africans like to think we are somehow ahead of the
>> > game,
>> > particularly in Africa. So when we hear we are very far behind the
>> > Kenyas of
>> > this world, it may awaken some misplaced sense of pride and stir a
>> > little
>> > action ...
>> >
>> > I don't know how much time I can commit to helping out as I am currently
>> > working in a very time-intensive environment. However, I have done some
>> > research on the topic of open government data, so I am happy to
>> > contribute
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Nimi
>> >
>> >
>> > On 30 April 2013 18:57, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> You can never have too many cheerleaders.  :)
>> >>
>> >> Adi
>> >>
>> >> On 30 Apr 2013 6:55 PM, "Janice Winter" <janicelwinter at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd be a super keen project cheerleader :)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 30 April 2013 16:31, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks Niki
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Actually, programming is just one of the many skills that are
>> >>>> required. We need the following (in no particular order):
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1. Scrapers (there are some tools that can help non-programmers
>> >>>> scrape
>> >>>> simple data)
>> >>>> 2. Identification of worthwhile datasets
>> >>>> 3. General project cheerleaders
>> >>>> 4. Legal opinions would be welcome
>> >>>> 5. Discussions around data availability. The more we discuss this
>> >>>> amongst ourselves and in other public spaces, the more it because a
>> >>>> real issue.
>> >>>> 6. Possibly a bunch more - we'll figure it out as we go along.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The bottom line is - don't exclude yourself if you're not a coder.
>> >>>> There are other dimensions to this problem.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A nice side-effect of this project is that we can start putting
>> >>>> together an data census in South Africa. What data is available and
>> >>>> where.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Adi
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 30 April 2013 15:24, Niki Moore <nikimoore007 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> > I really wish I could help you, but not being a hacker myself I
>> >>>> > wouldn't
>> >>>> > know where to start.  However, what I am very happy to do is take
>> >>>> > some
>> >>>> > of
>> >>>> > the hacked stuff and point out how useless it is in the first
>> >>>> > place...
>> >>>> > for
>> >>>> > instance, the DSD database of NGOs is five years out of date, and
>> >>>> > 90%
>> >>>> > of
>> >>>> > their records are wrong.  One of the biggest problems on the
>> >>>> > property
>> >>>> > roll
>> >>>> > is that it is inaccurate.  I could go on.....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Maybe one of the reasons why the government is so protective of
>> >>>> > their
>> >>>> > information is because they know that most of it is useless for
>> >>>> > purposes of
>> >>>> > governance.  So - perhaps a side angle would be that it is
>> >>>> > important
>> >>>> > for the
>> >>>> > public to have access to this information so that they can check
>> >>>> > that
>> >>>> > it is
>> >>>> > correct!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > N
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Adi Eyal <adi at burgercom.co.za>
>> >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Some of you may have read an article that I posted recently on the
>> >>>> >> OKFN mailing list and on the Daily Maverick with regards to the
>> >>>> >> openness of government data in South Africa.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> In that article, I described an exercise that I undertook to gain
>> >>>> >> commercial access to that data. I have had very few responses, all
>> >>>> >> of
>> >>>> >> which expressly forbid commercial use.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> As per the Copyright Act, I am not certain that most of this data
>> >>>> >> qualifies for copyright protection as it usually contains a
>> >>>> >> database
>> >>>> >> of facts where no innovative process was used to produce said
>> >>>> >> data.
>> >>>> >> On
>> >>>> >> the moral front, it seems absurd that data produced using public
>> >>>> >> funds
>> >>>> >> should be restricted in such a way. In an ideal world an open data
>> >>>> >> licence would be attached to all government data allowing for
>> >>>> >> re-use
>> >>>> >> without permission or restriction. Please see an excerpt from a
>> >>>> >> comment that I received from the legal advisor to parliament:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> "Should you wish to request permission or a licence to use
>> >>>> >> information
>> >>>> >> on our webpage for commercial gain, I suggest you indicate the
>> >>>> >> item
>> >>>> >> you want to use and the specific purpose for its use to allow us
>> >>>> >> to
>> >>>> >> make an informed decision. "
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I it is unacceptable to be required to request permission to
>> >>>> >> re-use a
>> >>>> >> list of MPs listed on www.parliament.gov.za
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I would like to propose a provocative response that will hopefully
>> >>>> >> spark a conversation (and despite the codename, not get me sued).
>> >>>> >> Volunteers and comments and criticisms welcome.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The idea is as follows:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> 1. Build a website registered at www.pleasesueme.co.za
>> >>>> >> 2. Scrape a bunch of data from government website, stuff that
>> >>>> >> seems
>> >>>> >> to
>> >>>> >> not be copyrightable
>> >>>> >> 3. Upload it to the website and offer it up for sale for a nominal
>> >>>> >> fee. It needs to be sold so as to assert a right for general
>> >>>> >> re-use.
>> >>>> >> Sold data will be re-released under an open licence.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The money (i expect very little data to be actually sold) will be
>> >>>> >> used
>> >>>> >> to fund a war-chest (however small) for a legal defense if it
>> >>>> >> comes
>> >>>> >> to
>> >>>> >> that. My gut feeling is that we won't get any response at all but
>> >>>> >> by
>> >>>> >> being provocative, we might get people thinking about why it might
>> >>>> >> be
>> >>>> >> important to push open data licences within government. We might
>> >>>> >> get
>> >>>> >> a
>> >>>> >> take-down notice which would be evaluated based on merit. I can't
>> >>>> >> imagine (though I am not a lawyer) that any public agency has the
>> >>>> >> time, money or wherewithal to take this to court.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Any responses, including flames about how I'm being naive or that
>> >>>> >> antagonism is not the correct approach are welcome.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Adi
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> --
>> >>>> >> Adi Eyal
>> >>>> >> Data Specialist
>> >>>> >> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>> >>>> >> skype: adieyalcas
>> >>>> >> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> --
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>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > --
>> >>>> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>> >>>> > 7th Avenue Communications
>> >>>> > 031 - 205-8331
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>> >>>> >
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Adi Eyal
>> >>>> Data Specialist
>> >>>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>> >>>> skype: adieyalcas
>> >>>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>> >>>>
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>> >>>
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>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Adi Eyal
>> Data Specialist
>> phone: +27 78 014 2469
>> skype: adieyalcas
>> linkedin: http://za.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Adi/Eyal
>>
>> --
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>>
>
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