[open-government] systems design for FOI acts [was: "The Government of Catalonia's Open Data Project is already a reality"

Wed Nov 17 10:39:42 UTC 2010

Katleen

Thanks for your interest in these issues

> Can these recommendations you suggested for the format of preservation of
> documents be found somewhere? I’d be very interested in reading them.
>

Not yet, - in the sense that I havent written them up yet, but I have a
bunch of scattered findings so far that we should publish online when we
find the resources. (mainly time to sit down and do this particular task)

I have attended a few events that discuss 'the cost of FOI' and I realised
that there is general cunfusion as to how to address the 'lets make it
inexpensive and simple' challenge, for systemic and structural reasons that
I mention below

>
>
> I also feel that more effort should be made by government to store their
> data in formats that are easily accessible and preferably machine-readable,
> but I’m not sure how far the obligation for this should go, considering the
> limited resources many of these public authorities have, and particularly
> considering the fairly limited ICT-awareness of many of the local
> authorities for instance. For any old documents, it would be too much
> burden, in my opinion, to ask the public bodies to convert these into better
> formats (or at least, it should not immediately be a priority). What could
> be required, is that an inventory is made of all existing material, so that
> at least that could be found, and that some priorities are given to the most
> interesting material to digitize and make accessible.
>
>
>
> So how do you find a balance between these issues? How have you solved it
> in your recommendations?
>

I hope we, you and others interested should set aside time to work on this
Maybe I ll  find out if there's slot for a session at the OGDC tomorrow.

My interest started when  I have tried to get some answers about how things
are done and why  (in relation to certain decisions to allocate public
funding to what seemed expensive unnecessary spending exercises, or in
relation to totally absurd IT decisions for example)
and FOI helped very little. Not all information is stored, cause not all
information is recorded.

The hysical digitization of paper documents themselves in short can be done
using simple metadata (keep the paper in some archive but make an electronic
record of the main components, similar to keeping books on a shelf and the
catalog in the it system), and where appropriate, maintain a scanned copy of
the document (a practice that started with fiches decades ago, for those who
remember).

Then in addition there are formatting issues, as you highlight, and
furthermore purely data storage decisions in the sense that even when the
information is recorded electronically, the databases and data schemas are
so designed to make it impossible to retrieve the information in a single
query.  For every bit of data record you are looking for, you must know the
right administrative 'code', told me the FOI lady once. We had a chat about
the system design.

I come from the 'systems science' perspective, and socio technical complex
systems.

We look at why is this database designed in such an absurd way to make the
retrieval of information (when available) so difficult and costly?

The answer is often some decision made by some organization based on some
non transparent decision making process, and some dubious reality in the IT
supply management chain.

You may have noticed that information systems are often poorly designed.
This if often because at the back of the IT supply chain dysfunctionality is
built into the system

So basically the recommendation is: lets look at the FOI Act across Europe
in relation to
organizational accountability, IT procurement transparency and participatory
governance all as one big issue that concerns everybody

Happy to talk about this in London tomorrow, and maybe set up a separate
work group or project for futures.

Cheers

Paola Di Maio

>
> Best regards,
>
> katleen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org [mailto:
> open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org] *On Behalf Of *Paola Di Maio
> *Sent:* zondag 14 november 2010 16:23
> *To:* Pedro Markun
> *Cc:* open-government at lists.okfn.org
> *Subject:* Re: [open-government] "The Government of Catalonia's Open Data
> Project is already a reality"
>
>
>
> Jacobo and Pedro
>
> a few of us have been actively researching the unfolding of the FOI act in
> the UK vs other countries in Europe, for some years
>
> What we have noticed so far, is that while having a piece of legislation in
> place is a good start, there are plenty of red tape issues that make the
> actual getting to the information very
> expensive, time consuming and sometimes unnerving exercise.
>
> The FOI in the UK  (nore in the EU that I know of) does not seem to
> prescribe what optimal format the data should be stored to make it easier to
> access and fulfil a FOI request, that means that it can take several pieces
> of correspondence and the work of various people including archivists to dig
> up pieces of information simply because the way it is stored is designed to
> make it difficult and expensive
>
>  As the result of this investigation, our research team is issuing
> recommendations for future amendment of the act itself, in the meantime, it
> would be great to know that you
> are aware of the problems we are facing with the act itself, so that you
> are not going to repeat the same mistakes, hopefully.
>
> I am very interested in learning more about what your activities and
> challenges
> are, and hope you' ll help us maintain our records up to date
>
> Here are some references that may be useful
>
>
> http://www.statewatch.org/foi/foi.htm
>
>
>
> http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2010/09/eu-sued-for-lack-of-transparency/68922.aspx
>
> Hope to meet you next week at the camp
>
> Best regards
>
> Paola Di Maio
>
> 2010/11/14 Pedro Markun <pedro at esfera.mobi>
>
> Hey Jacobo,
>
>
>
> great to hear from you. We've been doing the same thing here in Brazil with
> a community called Transparência Hacker. Brazil also doesn't have a FOIA
> altought the law is already in process of beeing voted and our group ensured
> that the text (and by ensured I mean 'we wrote ourselves) complies with all
> the Open Data Principles - so would love to exchange notes on that.
>
>
>
> We've been in BCN the last week (for Drumbeat Festival) and while I was
> reading Jonathan email I got really pissed that we missed that and couldn't
> talk to no one while we were there.
>
>
>
> Luckly, Daniela, who works with me, will be at the Camp. Hope you guys can
> catch up!
>
>
>
> []'s
>
> Pedro Markun
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Jacobo Elosua <jet at ezaromedia.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Jonathan and all.
>
> This is my first mail to the list. I am a member of Pro Bono Publico, the
> NGO that has been most active in the OGD space in Spain to date.
>
> The news about the Catalonian government OGD release are good, but they
> need
> to be read in conjunction with a few sobering facts: Spain (with
> Luxembourg,
> I believe) is the only EU country without 'Freedom of
> Information-equivalent' legislation right now. We hope this reality will
> change soon. There is a draft law in the making, although not particularly
> advanced... (1). In addition to that, the data sets made available
> proactively are still a million miles away from the desired level. On
> governmental spending, to name one area, quality data availability is still
> minimal.
>
> A couple of us will be attending the Camp next Thursday and Friday. We are
> looking forward to getting to know personally as many of you as possible.
> We
> really want to establish good working partnerships to be able to contribute
> as much as possible to the advancement of the OGD agenda from where we sit
> geographically (2). We have a lot to learn from you guys.
>
> Best regards.
>
>
> NOTES:
> (1) http://www.access-info.org/
> (2) my colleague David Cabo sent an email on Friday to
> wdmmg-discuss at lists.okfn.org detailing our (pretty much his) work in Spain
> along the 'Where does my money go' lines. I am unclear about the different
> lists and degrees of overlap. Let us know if it makes sense to forward it
> to
> this list.
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org
> [mailto:open-government-bounces at lists.okfn.org] En nombre de Jonathan Gray
> Enviado el: viernes, 12 de noviembre de 2010 16:45
> Para: open-government at lists.okfn.org
> Asunto: [open-government] "The Government of Catalonia's Open Data Project
> is already a reality"
>
> Great news! ;-)
>
>
> http://blocs.gencat.cat/blocs/AppPHP/gencat/2010/11/09/el-projecte-dades-obe
>
> rtes-de-la-generalitat-de-catalunya-ja-es-una-realitatthe-government-of-cata
>
> lonia%E2%80%99s-open-data-project-is-already-a-realityel-proyecto-datos-abie
> rtos-de-la-generalidad-de-c/?lang=en
>
> --
> Jonathan Gray
>
> Community Coordinator
> The Open Knowledge Foundation
> http://blog.okfn.org
>
> http://twitter.com/jwyg
> http://identi.ca/jwyg
>
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