[wdmmg-discuss] a good e.g. of obtaining council accounts

Thu Jul 8 08:46:34 UTC 2010

After some thought and meeting the people at Cambridge County Council 
yesterday, I have this advice: I suggest you ask for a meeting with 
someone in the finance team.

The chances are that they are worrying about how to present all their 
spending over £500 by next Jan so the public will understand it. They 
probably don't know about the transparency guidelines set out on Chris 
Taggart's Data.gov.uk blog post or that there are people like you who are 
skilled at presenting complex data to the public.

Being picky about the FOI law, like I was being in the email below, in 
general doesn't help get the result you want.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Lisa Evans wrote:

> And you can question if the really mean to apply section 41 rather than 43, 
> as 41 is more for protection of a person (including another public 
> authority), not a big company like Oracle.
>
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Lisa Evans wrote:
>
>>  They did the old trick of using section 41 and saying:
>>
>>  "the Oracle Applications database schema is provided to the Council in
>>  confidence by the Oracle Corporation and the disclosure of that
>>  information is likely to result in an actionable breach of confidence."
>>
>>  Have they checked with the supplier? Is it specifically written into the
>>  contract? You could ask for an internal review on this.
>>
>>  If you do this then point to the ICOs guidance on applying the S.43(2)
>>  exemption.
>>
>>  The council should have provided evidence that the supplier consider the
>>  release of the information would be prejudicial to their commercial
>>  interests. The ICOs guidance clearly states:
>>
>>  " The public authority must not speculate as to whether there is
>>  any commercial detriment and the reasons why without any evidence
>>  or input from the third party."
>>
>>  http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/freedom_of_information/detailed_specialist_guides/commercialdetrimentof3rdparties.pdf
>>
>>  As such I would ask for evidence that the Council have either:
>>
>>  * been in touch with the supplier specifically with respect to this
>>    request;
>>
>>  or
>>
>>  * provide a relevant excerpt from the contract between the authority and
>>    supplier which makes clear the information being sought would be
>>    commercially detrimental if released.
>> 
>>
>>  On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Richard Pope wrote:
>> 
>> >   I had this reply form Lambeth today (which I haven't fully read through
>> >   yet):
>> > 
>> >   http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/training_materialsdocumentation#incoming-90833
>> > 
>> >   They denied access to the database schema but provided their training
>> >   manuals. I could do with some help drafting the final request if
>> >   anyone feels so inclined?
>> > 
>> >   Richard
>> > 
>> >   On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Lisa Evans <lisa.evans at okfn.org> wrote:
>> > >   I'm meeting with 2 people from Cambridgeshire County Council 
>> > >   tomorrow, to
>> > >   talk about their accounting data and what they can share with us.
>> > > 
>> > >   If you have any questions then I'll ask for you -- just let me know.
>> > > 
>> > >   Here's some background on the accounting system they have at Cams 
>> > >   County
>> > >   Council.
>> > > 
>> > >   I found out the database used to store the council's accounts is a 
>> > >   Fujitsu
>> > >   Oracle system. Oracle Applications is on version 11.5.10.2 and the 
>> > >   database
>> > >   version is 10.2.0.3.0. I got this from here:
>> > >   http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/databases_used_to_store_county_c#incoming-82248
>> > > 
>> > >   I've got some of the accounts database schema information:
>> > >   http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/schema_for_the_fujitsu_oracle_da#incoming-82932
>> > > 
>> > >   I've got some idea of which tables are important:
>> > >   http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/data_from_the_fujitsu_oracle_dat#comment-11028
>> > > 
>> > >   I have the training notes for using the accounting database:
>> > >   http://www.archive.org/details/CambridgeshireCountyCouncilAccountsDatabaseTrainingMaterials
>> > > 
>> > >   That's all for now,
>> > > 
>> > >   Lisa
>> > > 
>> > >   On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Lisa Evans wrote:
>> > > 
>> > > >   I've mentioned before on this mailing list that I've been 
>> > > >   requesting
>> > > >   details of a few different council's accounts.
>> > > > 
>> > > >   My best result so far has been with Cambridgeshire County Council, 
>> > > >   as you
>> > > >   can see here:
>> > > > 
>> > > >   http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/data_from_the_fujitsu_oracle_dat
>> > > > 
>> > > >   Mostly this is because I've been lucky to meet Andy on 'What do 
>> > > >   they
>> > > >   know', who knows the account database tables well.
>> > > > 
>> > > >   So, I've got a meeting at Cambridgeshire county council to discuss 
>> > > >   the
>> > > >   data we want -- this gives me a chance to show the wdmmg 
>> > > >   visualisations and
>> > > >   explain the project.
>> > > > 
>> > > >   Let me know if you have suggestions for what to ask.  I should be 
>> > > >   meeting
>> > > >   them with Andy, hopefully this Wednesday, and I'll keep you posted 
>> > > >   on how
>> > > >   this goes.
>> > > > 
>> > > >   Lisa
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > >  _______________________________________________
>> > > >   wdmmg-discuss mailing list
>> > > >   wdmmg-discuss at lists.okfn.org
>> > > >   http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wdmmg-discuss
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > 
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>> > > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>