[wdmmg-discuss] a good e.g. of obtaining council accounts

[Richard Pope]

I asked for an internal review yesterday, but will see if I can get a
meeting to reassure them I'm not a nutter.

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Lisa Evans <lisa.evans at okfn.org> wrote:
> After some thought and meeting the people at Cambridge County Council
> yesterday, I have this advice: I suggest you ask for a meeting with someone
> in the finance team.
>
> The chances are that they are worrying about how to present all their
> spending over £500 by next Jan so the public will understand it. They
> probably don't know about the transparency guidelines set out on Chris
> Taggart's Data.gov.uk blog post or that there are people like you who are
> skilled at presenting complex data to the public.
>
> Being picky about the FOI law, like I was being in the email below, in
> general doesn't help get the result you want.
>
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Lisa Evans wrote:
>
>> And you can question if the really mean to apply section 41 rather than
>> 43, as 41 is more for protection of a person (including another public
>> authority), not a big company like Oracle.
>>
>> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Lisa Evans wrote:
>>
>>>  They did the old trick of using section 41 and saying:
>>>
>>>  "the Oracle Applications database schema is provided to the Council in
>>>  confidence by the Oracle Corporation and the disclosure of that
>>>  information is likely to result in an actionable breach of confidence."
>>>
>>>  Have they checked with the supplier? Is it specifically written into the
>>>  contract? You could ask for an internal review on this.
>>>
>>>  If you do this then point to the ICOs guidance on applying the S.43(2)
>>>  exemption.
>>>
>>>  The council should have provided evidence that the supplier consider the
>>>  release of the information would be prejudicial to their commercial
>>>  interests. The ICOs guidance clearly states:
>>>
>>>  " The public authority must not speculate as to whether there is
>>>  any commercial detriment and the reasons why without any evidence
>>>  or input from the third party."
>>>
>>>
>>>  http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/freedom_of_information/detailed_specialist_guides/commercialdetrimentof3rdparties.pdf
>>>
>>>  As such I would ask for evidence that the Council have either:
>>>
>>>  * been in touch with the supplier specifically with respect to this
>>>   request;
>>>
>>>  or
>>>
>>>  * provide a relevant excerpt from the contract between the authority and
>>>   supplier which makes clear the information being sought would be
>>>   commercially detrimental if released.
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Richard Pope wrote:
>>>
>>> >   I had this reply form Lambeth today (which I haven't fully read
>>> > through
>>> >   yet):
>>> > >
>>> > > http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/training_materialsdocumentation#incoming-90833
>>> > >   They denied access to the database schema but provided their
>>> > > training
>>> >   manuals. I could do with some help drafting the final request if
>>> >   anyone feels so inclined?
>>> > >   Richard
>>> > >   On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Lisa Evans <lisa.evans at okfn.org>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >   I'm meeting with 2 people from Cambridgeshire County Council > >
>>> > > tomorrow, to
>>> > >   talk about their accounting data and what they can share with us.
>>> > > > >   If you have any questions then I'll ask for you -- just let me
>>> > > > > know.
>>> > > > >   Here's some background on the accounting system they have at
>>> > > > > Cams > >   County
>>> > >   Council.
>>> > > > >   I found out the database used to store the council's accounts
>>> > > > > is a > >   Fujitsu
>>> > >   Oracle system. Oracle Applications is on version 11.5.10.2 and the
>>> > > > >   database
>>> > >   version is 10.2.0.3.0. I got this from here:
>>> > >
>>> > > http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/databases_used_to_store_county_c#incoming-82248
>>> > > > >   I've got some of the accounts database schema information:
>>> > >
>>> > > http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/schema_for_the_fujitsu_oracle_da#incoming-82932
>>> > > > >   I've got some idea of which tables are important:
>>> > >
>>> > > http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/data_from_the_fujitsu_oracle_dat#comment-11028
>>> > > > >   I have the training notes for using the accounting database:
>>> > >
>>> > > http://www.archive.org/details/CambridgeshireCountyCouncilAccountsDatabaseTrainingMaterials
>>> > > > >   That's all for now,
>>> > > > >   Lisa
>>> > > > >   On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Lisa Evans wrote:
>>> > > > > >   I've mentioned before on this mailing list that I've been > >
>>> > > > > > >   requesting
>>> > > >   details of a few different council's accounts.
>>> > > > > > >   My best result so far has been with Cambridgeshire County
>>> > > > > > > Council, > > >   as you
>>> > > >   can see here:
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/data_from_the_fujitsu_oracle_dat
>>> > > > > > >   Mostly this is because I've been lucky to meet Andy on
>>> > > > > > > 'What do > > >   they
>>> > > >   know', who knows the account database tables well.
>>> > > > > > >   So, I've got a meeting at Cambridgeshire county council to
>>> > > > > > > discuss > > >   the
>>> > > >   data we want -- this gives me a chance to show the wdmmg > > >
>>> > > > visualisations and
>>> > > >   explain the project.
>>> > > > > > >   Let me know if you have suggestions for what to ask.  I
>>> > > > > > > should be > > >   meeting
>>> > > >   them with Andy, hopefully this Wednesday, and I'll keep you
>>> > > > posted > > >   on how
>>> > > >   this goes.
>>> > > > > > >   Lisa
>>> > > > > > > > > >  _______________________________________________
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>>> > > >   wdmmg-discuss at lists.okfn.org
>>> > > >   http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wdmmg-discuss
>>> > > > > > > > > > >  _______________________________________________
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>>> > >   http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wdmmg-discuss
>>> > > > > > >
>



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